Most reliable method of preserving doctrine?

cygnusx1 · May 9, 2011

MrPolo said:
According to your statement here, the very canon of Scripture is flawed since it is man who received and identified said books. And the books themselves have to be flawed, since men like Matthew, Mark, Luke, or Isaiah, etc. penned them. So you must reject the reliability of Scripture to maintain consistency in your statement. Otherwise, you must admit that God is capable of preserving His truth through men.

does God have a problem moving men to write scripture and to canonise sacred scripture ? no

does this mean these men were infallible ? no

scripture tells us even Apostles make mistakes (read James) except when they were writing scripture .

even Peter recognised Pauls letters were scripture .... scripture tells us where to look for the truth once delivered ; scripture , not men .

Montalban · May 9, 2011

John Calvin believed in the Ever-Virginity of Mary, which isn't found in scripture

cygnusx1 · May 9, 2011

Montalban said:
It actually doesn't address what I wrote about the illogic of your position.

Actually we have other accounts of the Christian community spreading.

And we have 'tradition' that for instance Peter went to certain places and founded churches.

Not just Peter, all of the Apostles. We have a tradition that Thomas went to India. And it's backed up by the appearence of churches around the time tradition says that Thomas was there.

other accounts are imperfect , tradition is prone to bias , exaggeration , corruption , distortion and missing data .... unilke scripture .

the best you have got outside scripture is "perhaps" .

cygnusx1 · May 9, 2011

Montalban said:
John Calvin believed in the Ever-Virginity of Mary, which isn't found in scripture

Calvin also baptised infants which isn't in scripture ..... Calvin isn't scripture .

cygnusx1 · May 9, 2011

Montalban said:
You just gave your own answer.

According to you we're in the dark because although we have a perfect scripture we're all imperfect so that there's no guarantee that any one's interpretation of perfect scripture is correct.

You've not addressed tradition, such as of St. Thomas.

You've not addressed the illogic of Peter preaching imperfectly until he wrote it down.

so you think Peter always preached perfectly ? why then did he stumble over a doctrinal issue (the Law and the Gentiles) and God put him right by sending Paul , Paul reasoned using scripture not his own ideas . Peter accepted it.

man is flawed , God overcomes error by scripture , and this preserves truth .

Montalban · May 9, 2011

I thought we were going to have a discussion.

I'm not keen on reading a series of 'just-so' statements.

Montalban · May 9, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
so you think Peter always preached perfectly ? why then did he stumble over a doctrinal issue (the Law and the Gentiles) and God put him right by sending Paul , Paul reasoned using scripture not his own ideas . Peter accepted it.

man is flawed , God overcomes error by scripture , and this preserves truth .

Then the fact he is recorded as preaching imperfectly negates the infallibility of scripture?

For an Orthodox, it's nonsense to talk in terms of an individual. God gave this infallibility to 'the church'.

CaliforniaJosiah · May 9, 2011

Montalban said:
I'm not keen on reading a series of 'just-so' statements.

Like "Calvin believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary?"

OR was your point that Calvin's personal opinions ARE the preservation of Truth?

.

Montalban · May 9, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
Calvin also baptised infants which isn't in scripture ..... Calvin isn't scripture .

Your faith icon is "Calvinist". You are declaring you follow Calvin.

CaliforniaJosiah · May 9, 2011

Montalban said:
God gave this infallibility to 'the church'.

1. The EO or RC or OO or LDS or ____________?

2. Could you please quote God where He states that any specific denomination (including yours) will be forever "infallible?" Or are you using "name it, claim it?"

Thank you.

Pax

- Josiah

.

MamaZ · May 9, 2011

Montalban said:
Your faith icon is "Calvinist". You are declaring you follow Calvin.

Actually this is not true. Just because one has a icon as Calvinist does not mean we follow calvin. Now if they had a icon for predestinationist then that would be the icon I would use. For it is not Calvin who made up predestination. He just taught what the scriptures say.

Thekla · May 9, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
no.

edification and understanding go hand in hand [ 1 Cor 12-14 ]

One of the first things the Reformers did was to translate scripture into the language of the people they were ministering to .... this was almost always opposed !

not historically accurate ...

cygnusx1 · May 9, 2011

Montalban said:
Then the fact he is recorded as preaching imperfectly negates the infallibility of scripture?

hardly , preaching is not scripture .

For an Orthodox, it's nonsense to talk in terms of an individual. God gave this infallibility to 'the church'.

the church is far from infallible , and doctrine is developed , it evolves over time with many errors . It is accepted as true because of a self imposed tradition , how are there so many Christians saved outside Orthodoxy if one is only saved through being a member of the Church ?

Is salvation not by faith in Christ ? then many are saved who do not belong to Orthodoxy , they are Christs by simple faith .

Thekla · May 9, 2011

sunlover1 said:
Good question. I don't have the answer.

God has given us so many promises in His Word.
I say promises because God doesn't lie.
But it seems like unless one knows and believes a promise,
then it's not manifested in their situation...
I could be wrong but if the truth will set you free...
CAN it set you free if you can't "hear" it?

What do you think?

I think it is the heart that does the hearing ... or not.
And a hearing heart can "hear" beyond words.
But if it were the words only, then we are left with something different ... and there is also the sort of hearing that remains on the page and does not "dive in" (in which case language, in a sense, does not matter).

cygnusx1 · May 9, 2011

Thekla said:
not historically accurate ...

oh , I see , where did the Church authorities and human institutions bandy around the Reformers and grant them licenses to Print scripture ?

Luther and Tyndale spent years in hiding because the Church didn't want the people to have the scriptures ... In fact the Great Reformation would have been over very quickly without scripture , the Reformers knew this .

Thekla · May 9, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
oh , I see , where did the Church authorities and human institutions bandy around the Reformers and grant them licenses to Print scripture ?

Luther and Tyndale spent years in hiding because the Church didn't want the people to have the scriptures ... In fact the Great Reformation would have been over very quickly without scripture , the Reformers knew this .

The west was not the "only location" of Christianity ...

Ortho_Cat · May 9, 2011

jsimms615 said:
Not to be disrespectful to who started this thread, but the most reliable way to preserve doctrine is by the power of the Holy Spirit. If you rely on man, you would always get things fouled up.

I assume you're referring to the Spirit working in the individual believer. But what do we do when everyone claims that their contradictory interpretations of scripture are inspired by the Spirit? Where is the arbiter of truth?

Ortho_Cat · May 9, 2011

MamaZ said:
Actually this is not true. Just because one has a icon as Calvinist does not mean we follow calvin. Now if they had a icon for predestinationist then that would be the icon I would use. For it is not Calvin who made up predestination. He just taught what the scriptures say.

He certainly taught his opinion of what scripture says...

MrPolo · May 9, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
does God have a problem moving men to write scripture and to canonise sacred scripture ? no

Ok so you believe in the Spirit-guided Tradition of the identification of the canon. Excellent. So why shall God have a problem guiding men to expound on other teachings without error? Why should I trust the same people to give me the inerrant canon but not any other teaching? Should I trust God only if He is using men to teach about the canon but nothing else? It does not make sense.

sunlover1 · May 9, 2011

Thekla said:
I think it is the heart that does the hearing ... or not.
And a hearing heart can "hear" beyond words.
But if it were the words only, then we are left with something different ... and there is also the sort of hearing that remains on the page and does not "dive in" (in which case language, in a sense, does not matter).

I think of Scripture as the Word of God rather than
text on a page ...
That word is active and while I do believe that I can speak
that word over someone who can't understand my language
and it can affect his life, I don't believe that I can speak it
to him and expect him to understand it, at all.
This is why we have translations, otherwise I'd plug
in a Greek recording and fill er up!

Most reliable method of preserving doctrine?

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