Moses and 'The Green Man'

JJWhite · Apr 30, 2010

No, I don't think he was actually green.

In the Qur'an, there's this story about Moses meeting a man by the name of Al-Khidr, Al-Khader, which means 'the green one'. I was wondering if this story is found in any other Scriptures.

It's one of my favorite stories, because the main lesson that can be drawn from it is that perception is not the same as reality. It kind of follows the same logic as this.

Say you are walking down the street and you see a man peaking through a car window, taking a quick look around him, and then smashing his elbow into the window and breaking it into smithereens. What would your initial reaction be? You'd probably think quite badly of that person, and maybe you'll reach into your pocket for your cell phone to call the police. If a moment later however, you then see that man unlock the door and pull out a suffocating child to safety, your perception will immediately change. The reality of the situation hasn't changed, but your perception of the man changed drastically when you learned something new.

This story is said to have occurred after a captivating sermon given by Prophet Moses (I THINK on on Mount Sinai, not sure). The people's hearts were so moved by it, and one man came up to Moses and asked, "Who is the most knowledgeable (person)?" Well, Moses figures He was sent by God as His messenger to teach the people, so he says, "I am." It is said that God then wanted to teach Moses the lesson that knowledge should be attributed to God and thus instructed him to go on a journey to meet this man, Al-Khidr, who would teach him some things he needed to know. Moses prepared to leave with Joshua (who was then a young lad) as his traveling companion, and they set on their way.

I will post the story below then add some of my comments on another post later. You might wonder what fish is being mentioned and stuff like that without knowing the rest of the story.

Please share your comments as well.

JJWhite · Apr 30, 2010

60And (remember) when Moses said to his boy-servant: "I will not give up (traveling) until I reach the junction of the two seas or (until) I spend years and years in traveling."

61But when they reached the junction of the two seas, they forgot their fish, and it took its way through the sea as in a tunnel.

62So when they had passed further on (beyond that fixed place), Moses said to his boy-servant: "Bring us our morning meal; truly, we have suffered much fatigue in this, our journey."

63He said:"Do you remember when we betook ourselves to the rock? I indeed forgot the fish, none but Satan made me forget to remember it. It took its course into the sea in a strange (way)!"

64(Moses) said: "That is what we have been seeking." So they went back retracing their footsteps.

65Then they found one of Our slaves, unto whom We had bestowed mercy from Us, and whom We had taught knowledge from Us.

66Moses said to him (Khidr) "May I follow you so that you teach me something of that knowledge (guidance and true path) which you have been taught (by God)?"

67He (Khidr) said: "Surely! You will not be able to have patience with me!

68"And how can you have patience about a thing which you know not?"

69Moses said: "If God wills, you will find me patient, and I will not disobey you in aught."

70He (Khidr) said: "Then, if you follow me, ask me not about anything till I myself mention it to you."

71So they both proceeded, till, when they embarked the ship, he (Khidr) scuttled it. Moses said: "Have you scuttled it in order to drown its people? Surely, you have committed a dreadful thing."

72He (Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you, that you would not be able to have patience with me?"

73(Moses) said: "Call me not to account for what I forgot, and be not hard upon me for my affair (with you)."

74Then they both proceeded, till they met a boy, he (Khidr) killed him. (Moses) said: "Have you killed an innocent person who had killed none? Surely, you have committed a heinous crime!"

75(Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you that you can have no patience with me?"

76(Moses) said: "If I ask you anything after this, keep me not in your company, you have received an excuse from me."

77Then they both proceeded, till, when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them. Then they found therein a wall about to collapse and he (Khidr) set it up straight. (Moses) said: If you had wished, surely, you could have taken wages for it!"

78(Khidr) said: "This is the parting between me and you, I will tell you the interpretation of (those) things over which you were unable to hold patience.

79"As for the ship, it belonged to some poor people working in the sea. So I wished to make a defective damage in it, as there was a king after them who seized every ship by force.

80"And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.

81"So we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in righteousness and near to mercy.

82"And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the town; and there was under it a treasure belonging to them; and their father was a righteous man, and your Lord intended that they should attain their age of full strength and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of those (things) over which you could not hold patience."

Pure760 · Apr 30, 2010

JJWhite said:
Say you are walking down the street and you see a man peaking through a car window, taking a quick look around him, and then smashing his elbow into the window and breaking it into smithereens. What would your initial reaction be? You'd probably think quite badly of that person, and maybe you'll reach into your pocket for your cell phone to call the police. If a moment later however, you then see that man unlock the door and pull out a suffocating child to safety, your perception will immediately change. The reality of the situation hasn't changed, but your perception of the man changed drastically when you learned something new.

Thats a nice example of how ego is false because it is your perception of the world infront of you, never the truth behind it.

b&wpac4 · Apr 30, 2010

I am pretty sure this story does not appear in the Hebrew or Christian scriptures. It seems more in keeping with a story that would appear in rabbinic literature than in the early books of the Bible.

b&wpac4 · Apr 30, 2010

From Wikipedia:
Khidr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The story is also similar to one told in the Talmud of a journey made by the prophet Elijah and Rabbi Jochanan.[7] The first house where they stay the night belongs to a pious old couple who give the prophet and the rebbe the best of their food and beds. However, the couple's cow dies in the night. Elijah later explains that the Angel of Death came and he persuaded the angel to take the cow instead of the wife. The next house, as in the al-Khiḍr story, is that of a rich miser, and Elijah repairs his wall so that he will not, in having it repaired, find the treasure hidden under it. This story could have been adapted by religious figures to suit Elijah, taking the essence away from Moses having to learn from someone else. This could have been seen to belittle Moses. Hence was adapted to suit someone else.

JJWhite · Apr 30, 2010

b&wpac4 said:
Proverbs 25:21
If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.

Exodus 23:5
If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help him with it.

I like your signature!

JJWhite · Apr 30, 2010

Anyway.. I have to take an exam on the explanation of Chapter 18 of the Qur'an (The Cavern) next month. This story is in it. So, I'm gonna practice for my test on you guys.

According to the narrative, Moses was told by God that he would meet this man at some point where two bodies of water met. Scholars have speculated where, but we can't really know for sure. We see that Moses is eager to go and learn. He says he does not want to stop until he achieves his goal, or at least has tried his best to get there before resting. This shows us the attitude of the true seeker of truth.

God had told Moses to carry a fish with him. The fish was to be a sign for where he would find the green man. At some point during the travel, Moses finally needed a rest. He took a nap by a rock while Joshua sat. Joshua then noticed the fish (which I understand was a dead dried one) jump out of their carrying basket and make its way into the water. I'm sure Joshua must have found this unusual, but he did not wish to disturb his teacher, and so he decided to wait until Moses awoke to tell him. However, when Moses awoke, Joshua forgot to tell him about the fish.

They kept walking for a while until Moses started to feel fatigued. He asked Joshua to get out a morning meal for them. It was then Joshua remembered to tell him about the weird incident with the fish. Moses replied that that's what they had been waiting for, and told him, Let's go back. We learn here that honest forgetfulness is normal behavior, and one should not be held accountable for it. Moses just accepted kindly that Joshua had forgotten. Also, we note that they did not give up when they made a mistake. They just went back and tried again. At the juncture, they found Al-Khidr. Moses asked him permission to accompany him and learn from him. (There's a difference of opinion among Muslim scholars whether Khidr was a Prophet or a righteous person. Apparently, the stronger opinion is that he was a prophet because he ws receiving revelation from God.) Notice in the verses that God says He bestowed Mercy and knowledge on Khdir. The Arabic wording indicates that acquisition of knowledge is itself a sign of Mercy. The wording also shows the proper manners and etiquette of Prophet Moses when asking Khidr to accompany him and learn from him. Muslims believe that Moses is of higher status than Khidr, yet he was polite and respectful. We also learn that COMPANIONSHIP teaches much more than just asking some questions and getting answers. Moses wanted to accompany him to learn from him. We know Moses was very knowledgeable. This story shows that there is always more to learn. We should turn to specialists in their different fields to seek knowledge. By asking permission, he also built a bond with his new teacher.

Khidr then tells Moses that he will not be able to be patient with what he sees. He knew that Moses was a teacher of the law, and that he would not be able to see someone break it in front of him and not offer counsel. Moses promised that, by God's will, he would try to remain patient and obey all orders. We see from Moses's behavior that though his teacher appeared a bit discouraging, he remained resolved.

continued....

Pure760 · May 1, 2010

The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding' (Mark 4:11-12)

JJWhite · May 1, 2010

So, Moses remains resolved, but asks for permission once more. Notice Moses's wording. Wise, firm, yet polite and humble. Moses is willing to expend effort (patience and obedience) in order to learn. Sometimes, teachers put conditions. Khidr set the condition that Moses could accompany him only if he asked no questions about what he saw until he (Khidr) opened the discussion.

So they embarked on their voyage, and they came upon some sailors. The sailors knew Khidr and welcomed him heartily. Out of their respect and love for him they offered a free ride to him and also to his friend (Moses). When they were on the ship, Khidr pulled out a plank. Moses was stunned. Khidr was supposed to be a righteous person. Why was he damaging property? Moses could not remain silent. Remember. Moses is a Messenger of God, he could not just let something wrong happen in front of him and remain quiet. It would be like silent approval. So, Moses speaks. What horrible sort of act is this? Are you trying to drown the people who were so kind to you? Khidr simply replies, "Didn't I tell you you wouldn't be able to be patient?" Moses says he forgot and to please be excused for his forgetfulness. We can learn from here, especially when dealing with kids, in my opinion, is that people genuinely forget and we should not be so harsh with them and we should take that into account.

They then proceeded on their journey and came across a lad playing. Khidr grabbed the boy and killed him! Moses could not control himself! What a dreadful thing you've done! How could you kill an innocent soul? Khidr replies more emphatically that he knew Moses would not be able to remain patient with what he saw. Moses quickly asks for one last chance. So, Moses is now putting a condition on himself.

They go on until they've reached a village. By this time, they're starving. They ask the villagers to host them, but everyone is mean and tells them to go find their own food. They set on their way, but Khidr stops them and says he must wait to repair a wall which looks like it is about to fall. (I'm assuming a wall of a house.) Khidr reconstructs the wall. Even though this is nearly not as unusual as the act before, Moses is VERY hungry and tired and says, 'You know you could've asked them to pay you for all the hard work you've done.' Now Moses had pleaded 'last chance,' so Khidr acted according to the agreement and called it a day. Since I'm a mom, I like to relate things to dealing with kids. One thing that I learn from this is that when my kids ask for one more chance to correct some sort of misbehavior and I give it to them, I should be firm in following through with whatever consequence we agreed upon if they break the rule again.

Now Khidr didn't leave Moses hanging, and this is something we should also learn.

Khidr explained that there was a Pirate King roaming the seas. His friends had not come across or heard of that before, and he knew that if he had simply told him about the pirate, they may not have taken his counsel and sailed again and had their ship stolen from them. These were poor people who relied on their ship for sustenance, so Khidr protected them from losing their whole ship by causing some small damage to it that would force them to stop and repair it, thus avoiding the Pirate.

As for the boy, Khidr explained that this boy's parents were kind, good, and righteous people. This boy was going to grow into a rebellious, disbelieving person that was going to cause his parents nothing but much more grief and harm than even his death could result in. In God's Mercy to the righteous parents, Khidr was commanded to kill the boy. We learn from this that even those things that appear the WORST can bring about a greater good that we cannot understand. This helps us remember that in the case of any hardships we endure, the good that comes out of them will always outweigh the bad, even if we can't see it with our limited judgment. Khidr also said that God would bless the parents with other kinder and better offspring.

The third situation was that there were some orphans living in the house. Their parents had passed away and left them a treasure buried under that wall. Had the wall/house collapsed, they would have been forced to move. This was a town of greedy people, so they would not have exerted effort into looking for the children had they found the treasure later. Since, the kids were young and not mature enough to manage their wealth responsibly, the wall was built to protect it until such a time.

Khidr then explains that he did NONE of these things on his own accord. It was all with the instruction of God, the All-Knowing, the All-Aware. Some glad tidings from this part of the story is that if you are righteous, then you can have faith that God will look after your kids, even after your death. This also reminds us to take care of orphans.

General lessons:

Appearance and reality are often not the same.
Prevention is better than cure.
Three strikes your out.. ha ha... nah.. but do give people chances. lol.
Teachers are not always greater in status than their students.
There will always be someone who knows better than you.... and me.

ebin sabeel · Nov 13, 2011

JJWhite said:
I was wondering if this story is found in any other Scriptures.

In the Qur'an, there's this story about Moses meeting a man by the name of Al-Khidr, Al-Khader, which means 'the green one'.

This story is said to have occurred after a captivating sermon given by Prophet Moses (I THINK on on Mount Sinai, not sure). The people's hearts were so moved by it, and one man came up to Moses and asked, "Who is the most knowledgeable (person)?" Well, Moses figures He was sent by God as His messenger to teach the people, so he says, "I am." It is said that God then wanted to teach Moses the lesson that knowledge should be attributed to God and thus instructed him to go on a journey to meet this man, Al-Khidr, who would teach him some things he needed to know. Moses prepared to leave with Joshua (who was then a young lad) as his traveling companion, and they set on their way.

I will post the story below then add some of my comments on another post later. You might wonder what fish is being mentioned and stuff like that without knowing the rest of the story.

Please share your comments as well.

Hi, JJWhite. good to see you reading from the Qur'aan. May Allah Most High, the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, Muhammad (peace be upon them all) and all that exists, guideyou to the truth.

In answer to your question, Is this story found in any Scripture?

The answer is Yes. In the N.T.

Recapping -
Recapping; Musa (peace be upon him) and his apprentice Yosha' bin Noon during the years in the wilderness went on a journey to seek knowledge. And they came across 'the abd salih' - 'the pious slave of Allah'. Referred to as Kihdr.

74Then they both proceeded, till they met a boy, he (Khidr) killed him. (Moses) said: "Have you killed an innocent person who had killed none? Surely, you have committed a heinous crime!"

75(Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you that you can have no patience with me?"

76(Moses) said: "If I ask you anything after this, keep me not in your company, you have received an excuse from me."

77Then they both proceeded, till, when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them. Then they found therein a wall about to collapse and he (Khidr) set it up straight. (Moses) said: If you had wished, surely, you could have taken wages for it!"

78(Khidr) said: "This is the parting between me and you, I will tell you the interpretation of (those) things over which you were unable to hold patience.

79"As for the ship, it belonged to some poor people working in the sea. So I wished to make a defective damage in it, as there was a king after them who seized every ship by force.

80"And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.

81"So we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in righteousness and near to mercy.

Now keep in mind that this story relates to the peoples before us, the Jews and the Christians. where as Allah most high finally sent his last messenger Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) as a mercy to the worlds. This practice was done away with as a statute of The Law.

Now we move forward in time. The priests and Jesus (peace be upon him) have a confrontation. Now much bidah (innovation in religion) had crept into the Law of Moses (peace be upon him) and here we have a clash, the rabbis upholding the man-made innovation and Jesus (peace be upon him) demanding that they should be more concerned about upholding the compulsory Law of Moses (Torah).

Here is the passage:

Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6 he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

So here we see the knowledge that Moses sought being upheld by Jesus (peace be upon them).

Montalban · Nov 13, 2011

ebin sabeel, what's that got to do with green men?

awitch · Nov 13, 2011

"The Green Man" is usually another name for Cernunnos (Celtic deity) or Pan (Greek diety). The article here even mentions the Khadir's story is similar to that of Osiris (Egyptian deity).

ebin sabeel · Nov 13, 2011

Montalban said:
ebin sabeel, what's that got to do with green men?

The original question asked......

In the Qur'an, there's this story about Moses meeting a man by the name of Al-Khidr, Al-Khader, which means 'the green one'. I was wondering if this story is found in any other Scriptures.

And I answered YES. In the N.T.

The subject of the story is not about the Green Man but God's order to the Jews and christians to kill who ever curses their parents. And confirmed and demanded by Jesus (peace be upon him).

Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' Matthew 15

So The Qur'aan told the story of Musa (peace be upon him) and his search for knowledge and his meeting with The Faithful Slave of Allah.

74Then they both proceeded, till they met a boy, he (Khidr) killed him. (Moses) said: "Have you killed an innocent person who had killed none? Surely, you have committed a heinous crime!"
78(Khidr) said: "This is the parting between me and you, I will tell you the interpretation of (those) things over which you were unable to hold patience.
80"And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
81"So we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in righteousness and near to mercy.

And this was taken by Musa (peace be upon him) as Law which he sort after.

And Jesus demands that the Rabbis kill the boy who cursed their parents in accordance with GOD's LAW.

Jesus replied....For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' Matthew 15

And the origin of this story is found in the Qur'aan.

Hakan101 · Nov 13, 2011

ebin sabeel said:
And Jesus demands that the Rabbis kill the boy who cursed their parents in accordance with GOD's LAW.

Jesus replied....For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' Matthew 15

And the origin of this story is found in the Qur'aan.

Jesus wasn't demanding anything in that passage. He's pointing out the Pharisees are hypocrites, preaching one thing and doing another. They would kill a man who dishonors his mother and father, yet at the same time do the same thing themselves but claiming they obey God.

And the story of the Woman in the Well affirms that Jesus does not demand anyone be put to death for disobeying the Jewish law. He forgave her rather than kill her, as is the new covenant.

razeontherock · Nov 13, 2011

ebin sabeel said:
In answer to your question, Is this story found in any Scripture?

The answer is Yes. In the N.T.

Now we move forward in time. The priests and Jesus (peace be upon him) have a confrontation. Now much bidah (innovation in religion) had crept into the Law of Moses (peace be upon him) and here we have a clash, the rabbis upholding the man-made innovation and Jesus (peace be upon him) demanding that they should be more concerned about upholding the compulsory Law of Moses (Torah).

Here is the passage:

Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6 he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

So here we see the knowledge that Moses sought being upheld by Jesus (peace be upon them).

How do you pass this off as the story of the green man in the NT?

razeontherock · Nov 13, 2011

ebin sabeel said:
The original question asked......
And I answered YES. In the N.T.

The subject of the story is not about the Green Man but God's order to the Jews and christians to kill who ever curses their parents. And confirmed and demanded by Jesus (peace be upon him).

And the origin of this story is found in the Qur'aan. [/COLOR][/SIZE]
[/SIZE]

Wow. You have trouble with telling the difference between which came first, 33 AD or 700 AD. I think it likely you have missed the point of the story ...

Montalban · Nov 13, 2011

Hakan101 said:
Jesus wasn't demanding anything in that passage. He's pointing out the Pharisees are hypocrites, preaching one thing and doing another. They would kill a man who dishonors his mother and father, yet at the same time do the same thing themselves but claiming they obey God.

And the story of the Woman in the Well affirms that Jesus does not demand anyone be put to death for disobeying the Jewish law. He forgave her rather than kill her, as is the new covenant.

Exactly!

Montalban · Nov 13, 2011

ebin sabeel said:
The original question asked......
And I answered YES. In the N.T.

Yes, I know you did. It has nothing to do with green men or Jesus cursing people, etc.

ebin sabeel · Nov 13, 2011

Hakan101 said:
Jesus wasn't demanding anything in that passage. He's pointing out the Pharisees are hypocrites, preaching one thing and doing another. They would kill a man who dishonors his mother and father, yet at the same time do the same thing themselves but claiming they obey God.

Best you read again. The rabbis are asking why he doesn't follow their tradition. To which Jesus (peace be upon him) responds why don't you follow the Law of God (instead of the law of men).

Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'

#Verse #4> Jesus says GOD's LAW says "....MUST BE PUT TO DEATH."

Now read what follows - Jesus is attacking them for NOT PUTTING THE EVIL DOING SON TO DEATH. Instead they take bribes to spare him.

5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6 he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

razeontherock said:
How do you pass this off as the story of the green man in the NT?

Moses (peace be upon him) went seeking God's knowledge. He met the faithful slave of Allah who passed onto to him God's Law of dealing with really bad children who dishonor their mothers and fathers.

In the N.T. Jesus (peace be upon him) says putting to death those who dishonor their parents is God's Law found in the Torah ( Moses book (peace be upon him).

razeontherock said:
Wow. You have trouble with telling the difference between which came first, 33 AD or 700 AD. I think it likely you have missed the point of the story ...

The story is about Moses 1200BC(?). It is a story of the prophets. In this case, Moses & Joshua bin Nun (peace be upon them). It is revealed by Allah in His last Book, the Qur'aan.

The connection is how the Law came into Judaism and is confirmed by Jesus (peace be upon him) in the N.T.

Montalban · Nov 13, 2011

ebin sabeel said:
Best you read again. The rabbis are asking why he doesn't follow their tradition. To which Jesus (peace be upon him) responds why don't you follow the Law of God (instead of the law of men).

He's not saying that at all. He's alerting them to their own hypocrisy

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