Mortal Sin

[Vendetta]

I'm having some problems understanding mortal sin. The fact that some sins are worse than others is not something with which I grew up, but I was able to accept it on Catholic authoritative teaching alone. That's not my problem. I'm having a difficult time understanding why it is exactly that a soul who is in a state of mortal sin is damned to hell upon their death. Theoretically, if a person was the worst among venial sinners, and there was a person who committed no sin (...hypothetically), but committed a mortal sin and then died, the former could go to heaven while the latter would go to hell.

All this is very disconcerting to me. It is by far the only serious hang-up I've had with introducing myself to new Catholic teaching. Is there no possible chance for redemption for a person that dies in a state of mortal sin?

 

[Autumnleaf]

How can somebody commit no sin and commit mortal sin at the same time?

 

[Vendetta]

I meant not sinning prior to committing mortal sin. It's not a realistic scenario, but it's good for conveying what I mean. I understand that the entrance to heaven is not graded on a scale of good things done vs sins done in life, but I felt such an example is sort of getting at my idea here.

 

[Autumnleaf]

I meant not sinning prior to committing mortal sin. It's not a realistic scenario, but it's good for conveying what I mean. I understand that the entrance to heaven is not graded on a scale of good things done vs sins done in life, but I felt such an example is sort of getting at my idea here.

People can do all kinds of traffic violations and still have the priviledge of driving but for some odd reason if they get a DUI they lose all the points on their license to drive. Some things are deemed worse than others. Those things have wose consequences as well.

 

[Glorthac]

Vendetta, remember in the Old Testament, how some punishments are worthy of death, such as murder and rape (Deuteronomy 22:25), while others have punishments such as paying fines (Exodus 22:1)? Well, the concept is carried over into the age of the Church.

Some sins are worthy of death (a spiritual one), while others aren't.

Now, in your analogy, the guy who was "worst among venial sinners" sure would be least in the kingdom of heaven, but he committed no sin so horrible that it's worthy of death, while the mortal sinner gets his fair punishment. Just be thankful that the worst venial sinner gets God's mercy.

 

[Vendetta]

People can do all kinds of traffic violations and still have the priviledge of driving but for some odd reason if they get a DUI they lose all the points on their license to drive. Some things are deemed worse than others. Those things have wose consequences as well.

But in your example, these people can eventually be given their license back. Mortal sin leads to eternal punishment, and that's why it's a killer for me. I feel like if the only unforgivable sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, then all other sin would just require varying degrees of penance in Purgatory (I have a very elementary understanding of Purgatory, though, and I could be completely misrepresenting it).

Vendetta, remember in the Old Testament, how some punishments are worthy of death, such as murder and rape (Deuteronomy 22:25), while others have punishments such as paying fines (Exodus 22:1)? Well, the concept is carried over into the age of the Church.

Some sins are worthy of death (a spiritual one), while others aren't.

Now, in your analogy, the guy who was "worst among venial sinners" sure would be least in the kingdom of heaven, but he committed no sin so horrible that it's worthy of death, while the mortal sinner gets his fair punishment. Just be thankful that the worst venial sinner gets God's mercy.

Exodus is an interesting book. For example, when a man accidentally caused an abortion, he paid a fine instead of being put to death for murdering an innocent. Also, in Deuteronomy, God orders the Israelites to kill all Midianite boys and non-virgin women, many of whom would be pregnant. It's interesting to note, but rather off topic.

I understand your point. In fact, my example of the venial sinner and the mortal sinner is so weak that I could shred it apart on my own right now. I guess I don't have much to add in response, except what I said to Autumnleaf above this.

Appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out with this, though.

 

[Fantine]

Hell is the absence of God. People, not God, condemn themselves to hell. When they spend their lives focused on everything but God, they develop a permanent set of blinders that prevents them from seeing Him.

My view of heaven and hell is that God is everywhere, and His love is shining on everyone like the rays of the sun. Those in heaven are able to feel that heavenly sunlight. Those in purgatory can't see it as clearly, but gradually His warmth heals them and they move closer and closer to His presence. Those in hell have placed themselves beyond where they can be affected by His warmth.

When I see someone in a state of "objective" mortal sin--let's say someone who is divorced and remarried outside the Church--I ask myself whether they are still connecting with God, whether they still have a relationship with Him. And if they are, I don't worry much about their immortal souls (you, of course, are free to do so.)

And that's because the nuns in school always told us that the soul in mortal sin is completely turned away from God----and they aren't. So maybe they don't meet all the criteria for mortal sin.

 

[Eucharisted]

Mortal sin is separation from God. Hell is separation from God.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Three conditions must exist for a sin to be mortal,

one it must be of a grave matter.

second, it must be committed with full knowledge and understanding.

third, it must be committed freely.

So for a person to never have sinned, and all of a sudden committed mortal sin, this person would've had to sin under all three conditions.

The reality is, for a person to do this, the person would've have had to with full knowledge and consent, rejected God and remained in this state until death.

The person with the venial sin, if they continually turn back to God for forgiveness, and try as hard as they can not to sin, would receive the full mercy of God because they have not rejected him.

Jim

 

[St_Barnabus]

I have a difficult time believing a person lives a saintly life attuned to God, and all of a sudden commits a grievous sin. So many good and holy authors/saints have warned that venial sins, habitually indulged, pave the way to indifference and lukewarmness toward God, and the probability of disregarding serious sins. A person in this state is walking a tightrope and may one day find themselves over the edge.

IOW, anyone who sincerely and deeply loves God will try his best to avoid venial sins, knowing how much they offend Him whom they love. The slips into them are not as often as one might think, if this divine charity indwells them.

We see an example of complete remorse in the heart of St. Peter after he denied Jesus. Yet Judas, even after looking into the loving eyes of Jesus, and hearing, "Would you betray me with a kiss?" - committed suicide rather than repent and ask for forgiveness. There again, his prelude to betrayal was paved by repeated thefts as he held the purse, and his idolatry of money. A good example of venial leading to mortal.

 

[benedictaoo]

I'm having some problems understanding mortal sin. The fact that some sins are worse than others is not something with which I grew up, but I was able to accept it on Catholic authoritative teaching alone. That's not my problem. I'm having a difficult time understanding why it is exactly that a soul who is in a state of mortal sin is damned to hell upon their death. Theoretically, if a person was the worst among venial sinners, and there was a person who committed no sin (...hypothetically), but committed a mortal sin and then died, the former could go to heaven while the latter would go to hell.

All this is very disconcerting to me. It is by far the only serious hang-up I've had with introducing myself to new Catholic teaching. Is there no possible chance for redemption for a person that dies in a state of mortal sin?

It's not that some are worse then others, its' that they can be unto death.

Murder, no doubt is a worse crime, sin then petty theft. So there is a valid understanding that there is a worse and a least. Jesus even said, theres the least of the commandments.

So i just do not understand why this would not be clear.

but the concept is, unto death, if we commit grave serious sin with out repentance or contrition and we did it with the full force of our free will, then unto death, meaning when we die, if blasphemed the Holy Spirit up and until our dieing day, who had been trying to get us to repent and love God and be sorry and reconcile with Him, we will go to hell because we rejected God and fully embraced evil and sin even up to the moment we died.

if we repented in the last split second of our death, then those sins, would not be unto death. Because in the very last moment- we repented and accepted mercy, love, grace, and forgiveness.

It's not to say we aren't going to purgatory but if our contrition even in that last second was out of pure love of God and not out of a fear of hell, we would be going straight to heaven because "love" covers a multitude of sin and perfect love casts out all fear (of hell).

 

[benedictaoo]

I meant not sinning prior to committing mortal sin. It's not a realistic scenario, but it's good for conveying what I mean. I understand that the entrance to heaven is not graded on a scale of good things done vs sins done in life, but I felt such an example is sort of getting at my idea here.

well, yeah it is.

We have to have gain some merit. Our hands need to be filled with good things, and not just be empty.

 

[benedictaoo]

I have a difficult time believing a person lives a saintly life attuned to God, and all of a sudden commits a grievous sin. So many good and holy authors/saints have warned that venial sins, habitually indulged, pave the way to indifference and lukewarmness toward God, and the probability of disregarding serious sins. A person in this state is walking a tightrope and may one day find themselves over the edge.

Josefa Menendez The Way of Divine Love

When a man consents to sin, whether he is conscious of it or not, he gives the devil great power over him, the power of seduction and possession. This is not very noticeable, as a rule, for the evil one excels in dissimulation and avoids disturbing those he believes he has in his net. He strengthens what is evil in his prey, multiplies occasions of sin and benumbs the soul, till it sinks into a state of torpor which is absolutely fatal

But of course we have to counter balance this the Divine Mercy.

Judas did not place his trust in His mercy. Peter did.

 

[Vendetta]

Thank you for your words, Benedictaoo.

 

[Rhamiel]

I'm having some problems understanding mortal sin. The fact that some sins are worse than others is not something with which I grew up, but I was able to accept it on Catholic authoritative teaching alone. That's not my problem. I'm having a difficult time understanding why it is exactly that a soul who is in a state of mortal sin is damned to hell upon their death. Theoretically, if a person was the worst among venial sinners, and there was a person who committed no sin (...hypothetically), but committed a mortal sin and then died, the former could go to heaven while the latter would go to hell.

All this is very disconcerting to me. It is by far the only serious hang-up I've had with introducing myself to new Catholic teaching. Is there no possible chance for redemption for a person that dies in a state of mortal sin?

it is about a relationship with Christ
we are "alive in Christ" to be with Him is to be alive, and even if we rip parts of our soul up with sin, if we are with Him we are alive

when we leave Him we die
when you described these two sinners I had a thought, it is like this
two men one is very old and the other is young
the old man has a glass eye and is missing a leg, he had heart problems and needs 16 differant kinds of medication a day, he has the flue and is on dialisis
the young man is 20 years old and a wonderful athlete, perfect toned body, perfect health, he also has his heart riped out
"why is one dead and the other alive"
without the heart we can not live
simple as that

 

[benedictaoo]

Vendetta, remember in the Old Testament, how some punishments are worthy of death, such as murder and rape (Deuteronomy 22:25), while others have punishments such as paying fines (Exodus 22:1)? Well, the concept is carried over into the age of the Church.

Some sins are worthy of death (a spiritual one), while others aren't.

Now, in your analogy, the guy who was "worst among venial sinners" sure would be least in the kingdom of heaven, but he committed no sin so horrible that it's worthy of death, while the mortal sinner gets his fair punishment. Just be thankful that the worst venial sinner gets God's mercy.

well the horrific mortal sinner would get it to, if they wanted it.

The point I want to get across is, there is no sin too great that can not be forgiven. The worse rotten sinner who committed the worse sins there is, can still be forgiven and if he has the grace to be so perfectly contrite, then he goes straight up to heaven because his hands are filled with a perfect love that covers a multitude of sin..

while the worse kind of venial sinner will be in purgatory detaching from all the small sin attachments and maybe even some mortal sin attachments that he repented of, just did not purge himself of attachment to it nor did he do penance to make up for his sins and regain the merit mortal sin lost for him.

 

[Vendetta]

It's beginning to make sense. You all must understand I'm coming from a background of "one cannot lose their salvation". It's proving hard at some points to break from it.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm having some problems understanding mortal sin. The fact that some sins are worse than others is not something with which I grew up, but I was able to accept it on Catholic authoritative teaching alone. That's not my problem. I'm having a difficult time understanding why it is exactly that a soul who is in a state of mortal sin is damned to hell upon their death. Theoretically, if a person was the worst among venial sinners, and there was a person who committed no sin (...hypothetically), but committed a mortal sin and then died, the former could go to heaven while the latter would go to hell.

All this is very disconcerting to me. It is by far the only serious hang-up I've had with introducing myself to new Catholic teaching. Is there no possible chance for redemption for a person that dies in a state of mortal sin?

try to look at mortal sin as turning away from God, and knowingly choosing sin over Him.

if a person did this and then didn't repent, they'd die turned away from God.. they'd die in a state that they don't love God and don't want Him...

so they wouldn't be able to be with Him in Heaven, - they wouldn't want God.

If a person repents and means to go to Confession, but doesn't get the chance (for reasons outside their control) - that's another story.

hope that helps..

God bless

 

[benedictaoo]

It's beginning to make sense. You all must understand I'm coming from a background of "one cannot lose their salvation". It's proving hard at some points to break from it.

You can't lose what you don't have.

What we have the justification to go to heaven that no one, not even us can take away from us if we have been baptized.

The justification is being born again in Christ Jesus who defeated for us, on the cross, hell, sin, Satan, death.

We know He was victorious over these because He rose. So our faith is not in vain.

But we are not "saved' in the Protestant sense of that word. Why? because we haven't died yet.

It's like saying I'm at the mall but I'm really at my house.

We will be saved when we get to that destination. We have to die to get there. There is just no getting around that.

But from now until then, from the day we were baptized which is the day we received that justification, until the day we leave our bodies, there is this funny thing called life we must live.

and life is nothing but a series of choices we make. We can make them ignorantly, we can make them because we were tricked into making them, under duress, or we can make them because we were forced and we can make them freely.

These choices, is what will ultimately determine our destination.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I'm having some problems understanding mortal sin. The fact that some sins are worse than others is not something with which I grew up, but I was able to accept it on Catholic authoritative teaching alone. That's not my problem. I'm having a difficult time understanding why it is exactly that a soul who is in a state of mortal sin is damned to hell upon their death. Theoretically, if a person was the worst among venial sinners, and there was a person who committed no sin (...hypothetically), but committed a mortal sin and then died, the former could go to heaven while the latter would go to hell.

I don't think it's possible to commit mortal sin without first having done some venial.