Mormons

[baker]

I haven't done extensive research into polygamy, so maybe I can leave that to Doc or I can find a web link for you to check out.

Edit: Here is a link on polygamy: http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Facet.shtml#poly
It briefly mentions how many of the early LDS church leaders came out of polygamist families. This seems to me to be a quick way to "raise up seed to the Lord", whether you agree with the practice or not. Also noted polygamy WAS NOT given to the entire church. I believe the article stated 15% and 5% of those being men. This may not be exactly what you're looking for, but I hope it helps.



Of course I can always give you my one-minute answer, but I think you're looking for something a bit more in-depth.

TW

Twhite,

I don't think this site addresses the question I had.

If I understand the responses I've received from you and Doc with respect to the language in Jacob 30;

You believe "raising seed" is generating offspring and the condition by which god commanded polygamy(?)

Doc does not believe "raising seed" is for the generation of offspring but is still the condition for god "to command" in this verse(?)

(I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth, so please correct my statements if I have)

I'm still confused as to how Jacob 2:30 is used to support polygamy when verse 24 of this lds scripture clearly prohibits its practice. What condition does "raising seed unto me" fulfill that (1) allows god to command and (2) would require the practice of polygamy to achieve?

It seems like even the two of you don't agree with the scriptural meaning of this verse. (Not that it is bad or even uncommon to disagree on the meaning of things.) What am I missing here? Is the obvious reading of this scripture really not so obvious?

Any help/thoughts?

 

[Doc T]

Twhite,

Thanks. I don't think I disagree with your explanation. I mean it all sounds so very Christ-like.

Now, why is polygamy necessary to accomplish this?

Doc: If God wants to raise up a righteous seed unto him and God has those men who are more righteous have additional wives and thus more offspring that they can raise up to the Lord, then I think that the requirement is met. "For if I will raise up a seed to me sayeth the Lord, I will command my people." I hope this clarifies the issue for you.

 

[twhite982]

Twhite,

I don't think this site addresses the question I had.

If I understand the responses I've received from you and Doc with respect to the language in Jacob 30;

You believe "raising seed" is generating offspring and the condition by which god commanded polygamy(?)

I really don't believe that "raising seed" is just having babies. Not at all. "Raising seed" up unto the Lord is raising those children to love the Lord. I'll post a snip-it of the article I referrenced, which I thought might help the discussion:

... The real reasons have not been given, but polygamy is obviously a way to rapidly increase a population. The Book of Mormon teaches that polygamy is prohibited, unless the Lord commands it to "raise up seed unto me" (Jacob 2:27-30). Though practiced by a minority of LDS families during the time before its prohibition in 1890, the many descendants of those families have comprised the backbone of Church leadership for years, undoubtedly affected by the faith and sacrifice it required to live that difficult but revealed practice. (http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Facet.shtml#poly)

We know in one part of the Bible God commands us not to kill, yet in another He commands Isael to kill. Is this a double standard? No, because the Lord always has a higher purpose involved. Since exact and specific reasons for Polygamy have not come forth through our scripture, we can only speculate with the little information we have. One of the hints is to "raise up seed" to the Lord, yet it is done under His guidelines not ours. Those who took it upon themselves to practice polygamy were excommunicated.

Doc does not believe "raising seed" is for the generation of offspring but is still the condition for god "to command" in this verse(?)

(I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth, so please correct my statements if I have)

I'm still confused as to how Jacob 2:30 is used to support polygamy when verse 24 of this lds scripture clearly prohibits its practice. What condition does "raising seed unto me" fulfill that (1) allows god to command and (2) would require the practice of polygamy to achieve?

Actually Jacob 2:30 doesn't support polygamy, it only gives a possible reason for the practice. D&C 132 is the core revelation on the subject, but even then it isn't directly applied to polygamy it is for eternal marriage. Which BTW we do have a discussion about under a different thread in this forum.

It seems like even the two of you don't agree with the scriptural meaning of this verse. (Not that it is bad or even uncommon to disagree on the meaning of things.) What am I missing here? Is the obvious reading of this scripture really not so obvious?

Any help/thoughts?

I wouldn't say that we disagree, I think that we have different viewpoints on how we are saying essentially the same thing.

Hope this helps.

TW

 

[baker]

Doc and Twhite,

Thanks for your clarification.

Doc, I had thought by your post from last week you did not think "raise seed" meant more offspring. Perhaps I did not understand it but will assume you do believe it means offspring. Is this correct?

So if I understand the two of you, you believe polygamy was only directed to those men who were more worthy than the other men in your church at that time to quicken the birth of more righteous offspring. While I don't know if I agree that polygamy helps raise "more righteous" people in the eyes of god (given that it was so limited in time and in numbers), I guess this is consistent to what I've read Brigham Young taught that only those who entered into polygamy (or perhaps were commanded to) would reach god's greatest level.

This practice, and the "worthiness" concept around it, must have caused somewhat of a "class" or "cast" system within the ranks at the time. Is this why the fundamentalist mormons are still so zelous about the practice of polygamy - is it still a worthiness issue to them?

The confusing thing about all this is that Joseph Smith, according to the info found at lds.org, never raised any seed (ie children) outside of his marriage to is original wife. I think it shows he had some 20+ wives but no children from any of them except his first (Emma Smith). In addition to this being against the law at that time (I think), does it not go against the the whole command of god contained in Jacob 2:30?

Interesting stuff you gotta admit! (I just finished my third book on all this history - truly fascinating)

As always, thanks for both of your thoughts.

PS Twhite, I did not know a separate thread on celestial marriage was started. I will try and keep applicable questions and comments there in the future.

 

[Doc T]

baker: Doc, I had thought by your post from last week you did not think "raise seed" meant more offspring. Perhaps I did not understand it but will assume you do believe it means offspring. Is this correct?

Doc: While it could result in more offspring, the main purpose was to obey God, the second was to "raise up a seed" to God.

baker: So if I understand the two of you, you believe polygamy was only directed to those men who were more worthy than the other men in your church at that time to quicken the birth of more righteous offspring. While I don't know if I agree that polygamy helps raise "more righteous" people in the eyes of god (given that it was so limited in time and in numbers), I guess this is consistent to what I've read Brigham Young taught that only those who entered into polygamy (or perhaps were commanded to) would reach god's greatest level.

Doc: While polygamy in and of itself does not help raise a more righteous people, it can put more children in righteous homes than otherwise.

baker:This practice, and the "worthiness" concept around it, must have caused somewhat of a "class" or "cast" system within the ranks at the time. Is this why the fundamentalist mormons are still so zelous about the practice of polygamy - is it still a worthiness issue to them?

Doc: Not particularly. You will have to speak to the fundamentalist mormons about that.

baker:The confusing thing about all this is that Joseph Smith, according to the info found at lds.org, never raised any seed (ie children) outside of his marriage to is original wife. I think it shows he had some 20+ wives but no children from any of them except his first (Emma Smith). In addition to this being against the law at that time (I think), does it not go against the the whole command of god contained in Jacob 2:30?

Doc: In Joseph case it was strictly because it was commanded. While in Joseph's situation it did not bring children, to the church as a whole, it did raise up a righteous seed unto God.

baker: Interesting stuff you gotta admit! (I just finished my third book on all this history - truly fascinating)

As always, thanks for both of your thoughts.

Doc: If you are interested in the subject, I suggest you read the book, "More Wives Than On" Transformation of the Mormon Marriage System, 1840-1910 by Kathryn M. Daynes