Mormon Recruiting in an Evangelical Church

[Norah63]

We are the church, we go to a building to fellowship.
A forum is a form of fellowship. Place we congregate to share our lives and our faith with each other.
As you say something Drsteve that encourages me to read scripture, that is a form of recruiting me to grow in the faith you are sharing with me.
Thanks for giving me reasons to believe.

 

[drstevej]

I could offer you a free car, but I could require that you take a stringent driving course and get perfect marks in all the tests before I hand you the keys. Does your success in passing the driving course pay for the car? Is my requirement out of line, seeing that I know if you are not prepared to drive, you may harm yourself and others?

But Mormonism places the requirements on keeping the car as well ... so your analogy doesn't help your case. Lots of legal-ese fine print in the Mormon gospel.

BIBLE (Ephesians 2:8-9)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[MormonFriend]

But Mormonism places the requirements on keeping the car as well ... so your analogy doesn't help your case. Lots of legal-ese fine print in the Mormon gospel.

BIBLE (Ephesians 2:8-9)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I have no idea what you are referring to. A person is given the gift of Eternal Life / salvation when they demonstrate that they understand and fully appreciate the gift with a gratitude that is perfect. That is assured in the analogy by the "perfect score" obtained in the stringent driving course. We could not obtain such a score, allegorically speaking, without the free gift of Grace as we study, apply, and learn. The drivers' course is our earthly test by learning to keep the commandments. If not for the atonement of Jesus Christ, our first failure would be our final. But with His forgiveness, His Grace, it is like a driving simulator where an accident does not mame or kill, but allows one to reset the program and not make that same mistake (if he is teachable). How could anyone boast about passing that course when it is undeniably evident we did not do so without His help? Boasting in such a manner is a major infraction that would not allow that prideful person a perfect score. (Your attachment of boasting with the LDS doctrine of required works, is but another example of taking a piece of our puzzle, and showing how it doesn't fit into your puzzle scheme.)

So you are suggesting that we have requirements to maintain Eternal Life after it is already given? How so? In the process of learning to keep the commandments during this earthly probation, we must be converted. That is a life long process. One of the evidences of a true conversion (as we piece the big picture of OUR puzzle together) is that our pride is extracted as the dross is removed from gold. As that pride is removed, we find that instead of keeping the commandments because we have to, we keep the commandments because we want to. When you use the term "requirements", you are saying there are things we still have to do to "keep the car", or keep our salvation. When you want to do those things, they are automatic. They have intrinsically become a part of you. The word "requirement" would no longer exist in that perfect realm, yet as we view it from here, it may appear in loose terms as requirements.

In our big picture jigsaw puzzle, every level of glory in heaven is goverened by law. Those laws define that level, or that glory. Those who reside in each level of heaven have those laws intrinsically inscribed into their hearts, and abide in a glory commensurate with those laws. Those are the laws that they were willing to abide in, the laws that they did not reject in this life. The laws that we do reject in this life is synonymous with the pride that we will not let go of. We cannot return to where God resides, unless we let go of ALL our pride. We will have learned that keeping those laws, or harmonizing with them, brings unspeakable peace and joy. It cannot be seen as requirements, but blessed eternal opportunities.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have no idea what you are referring to. A person is given the gift of Eternal Life / salvation when they demonstrate that they understand and fully appreciate the gift with a gratitude that is perfect. That is assured in the analogy by the "perfect score" obtained in the stringent driving course. We could not obtain such a score, allegorically speaking, without the free gift of Grace as we study, apply, and learn. The drivers' course is our earthly test by learning to keep the commandments. If not for the atonement of Jesus Christ, our first failure would be our final. But with His forgiveness, His Grace, it is like a driving simulator where an accident does not mame or kill, but allows one to reset the program and not make that same mistake (if he is teachable). How could anyone boast about passing that course when it is undeniably evident we did not do so without His help? Boasting in such a manner is a major infraction that would not allow that prideful person a perfect score.

So you are suggesting that we have requirements to maintain Eternal Life after it is already given? How so? In the process of learning to keep the commandments during this earthly probation, we must be converted. That is a life long process. One of the evidences of a true conversion (as we piece the big picture of OUR puzzle together) is that our pride is extracted as the dross is removed from gold. As that pride is removed, we find that instead of keeping the commandments because we have to, we keep the commandments because we want to. When you use the term "requirements", you are saying there are things we still have to do to "keep the car", or keep our salvation. When you want to do those things, they are automatic. They have intrinsically become a part of you. The word "requirement" would no longer exist in that perfect realm, yet as we view it from here, it may appear in loose terms as requirements.

In our big picture jigsaw puzzle, every level of glory in heaven is goverened by law. Those laws define that level, or that glory. Those who reside in each level of heaven have those laws intrinsically inscribed into their hearts, and abide in a glory commensurate with those laws. Those are the laws that they were willing to abide in, the laws that they did not reject in this life. The laws that we do reject in this life is synonymous with the pride that we will not let go of. We cannot return to where God resides, unless we let go of ALL our pride. We will have learned that keeping those laws, or harmonizing with them, brings unspeakable peace and joy. It cannot be seen as requirements, but blessed eternal opportunities.

Is there such a thing as perfect gratitude coming from a deeply imperfect individual?

 

[MormonFriend]

Is there such a thing as perfect gratitude coming from a deeply imperfect individual?

A very thoughtful and piercing question.
Only when you have faith that you can do better today, than you did yesterday, and seek God's help to make it so. We are not judged for not attaining perfection, but for enduring with this kind of faith.

 

[MormonFriend]

We are the church, we go to a building to fellowship.
A forum is a form of fellowship. Place we congregate to share our lives and our faith with each other.
As you say something Drsteve that encourages me to read scripture, that is a form of recruiting me to grow in the faith you are sharing with me.
Thanks for giving me reasons to believe.

The Church that Jesus organized and established had presiding individuals who were anointed to care for His Church. All those who belonged to His Church recognized the leadership role of those whom He called, and received their corrections. They served to correct false notions and doctrines that crept into the Church. Who would those anointed servents be, here on this forum church, that all here recognize divine leadership? (Respectful tones as emphasis)

 

[Rescued One]

A person is given the gift of Eternal Life / salvation when they demonstrate that they understand and fully appreciate the gift with a gratitude that is perfect.

That is not the gospel.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
Ephesians 2

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:8

 

[drstevej]

A person is given the gift of Eternal Life / salvation when they demonstrate that they understand and fully appreciate the gift with a gratitude that is perfect.

Do you do this? PERFECT GRATITUDE? Really? Must you maintain "perfect gratitude" or lose your salvation?

This is not biblical.
This is another gospel.

Is this the doctrine of your church? Or are you adding "new revelation"? Or are you simply speculating?

 

[Norah63]

As was stated in post #219 & 220
Who is man to judge if I am a christian ? What authority is given you to do this?
I think that is one of the forum rules, along with calling any faith, or person as, "nuts", or "barking mad". Those words are just insults. As christians we know that as poor conduct.
May we have discussion on the thread topic, is recruting unethical, in a building of worship,
or to a person in written forum. If that person, has been in a place of worship with said recruter.

 

[rockytopva]

Since salvation was brought up here...

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - Romans 12:9

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. - Acts 16:31

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: -Acts 17:29-30

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. - 2 Chronicles 7:14

So, this is the requirement of God, that we should all humble ourselves and confessing the name of Jesus. This is what God desires. But the Galatians complicated the Gospel...

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. -Galatians 1:6-9

This is the manner of Satan himself... To complicate the Gospel, and then tell the unwary that they are not 'obedient' if they do not buy into the complication.

 

[joneysd]

Since salvation was brought up here...

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - Romans 12:9

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. - Acts 16:31

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: -Acts 17:29-30

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. - 2 Chronicles 7:14

So, this is the requirement of God, that we should all humble ourselves and confessing the name of Jesus. This is what God desires. But the Galatians complicated the Gospel...

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. -Galatians 1:6-9

This is the manner of Satan himself... To complicate the Gospel, and then tell the unwary that they are not 'obedient' if they do not buy into the complication.

Amen, it really is simple just have faith in Jesus and his finished works.

 

[Catherineanne]

Who is man to judge if I am a christian ? What authority is given you to do this?

This is a Christian forum. To have a Christian icon, a person has to agree that they subscribe to the Nicene Creed.

If anyone here cannot subscribe to the Nicene Creed, then they are not accepted as Christian, as defined by this forum, and indeed as defined by Nicene.

If anyone here claims a Christian icon and then makes it clear that they do not subscribe to Nicene, or that their beliefs are actually Mormon, then they can be reported for that.

By that standard, the Mormon faith is NOT Christian, although as I said above, individual Mormons may well be accepted by the Lord as his followers; that is not for any of the rest of us to judge. But we can certainly judge Mormon theology as not being Christian, for the simple reason that it is not Christian. And it is that theology which I have called barking mad, because it bears precious little relation to that of the Bible, or to the Gospel of Christ, while wanting to claim that it is Christian; it isn't.

The Nicene Creed is the benchmark on this forum, as it is for many Christian denominations. That is not to say that Nicene is the last word on our faith, but it is certainly one of the first.

 

[rockytopva]

This is a Christian forum. To have a Christian icon, a person has to agree that they subscribe to the Nicene Creed.

I do not know the Nicene Creed... and I don't want it explained... I am saved through simple faith in Jesus.

 

[Catherineanne]

I do not know the Nicene Creed... and I don't want it explained... I am saved through simple faith in Jesus.

The Pentecostal Church accepts the Nicene Creed, whether you realise it or not.

'Simple faith in Jesus' is not sufficient, I am afraid; Moslems have 'simple faith' in Jesus, but not as the Son of God, not as Saviour, not as the Incarnation, the Word of God, the one who died for your sins and mine. The Nicene Creed summarises all of this, and more:

Nicene Creed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[rockytopva]

Catherineanne; I have posted this in the Methodist forum of a conversion the 'Methodist way.' This is the way I got it...

http://www.christianforums.com/t7757196/#post63518100

 

[Catherineanne]

Catherineanne; I have posted this in the Methodist forum of a conversion the 'Methodist way.' This is the way I got it...

http://www.christianforums.com/t7757196/#post63518100

Thank you.

Methodists also subscribe to Nicene.

 

[Norah63]

I bow to none but King Jesus Christ of Nazereth.
At His feet the crowns will be laid from all mens creeds.
Washed in the blood.
I wear the title of christian
If you want to report me, report me as joyful and redeemed.

 

[rockytopva]

Thank you.

Methodists also subscribe to Nicene.

Well then, so we put a civilized end to a conversation! Who-hoo! Praise God for that!

 

[MormonFriend]

Do you do this? PERFECT GRATITUDE? Really? Must you maintain "perfect gratitude" or lose your salvation?

This is not biblical.
This is another gospel.

Is this the doctrine of your church? Or are you adding "new revelation"? Or are you simply speculating?

The gospel I follow has the Son of God commanding us to be perfect. I safely assume He includes being perfect in our grattitude. Did you see the following post and answer before you asked me this question?

Is there such a thing as perfect gratitude coming from a deeply imperfect individual?

A very thoughtful and piercing question.
Only when you have faith that you can do better today, than you did yesterday, and seek God's help to make it so. We are not judged for not attaining perfection, but for enduring with this kind of faith.

You cry "foul!" as if you understand what perfection is. How can an imperfect person understand what perfection is? That understanding will come to us line upon line, and precept upon precept if and when God reveals it to you. In the mean time, we follow the admonitions of our Savior in faith, which is especially essential when we do not fully understand, but believe that understanding will come as we act with positive works to that end. We can only become more like Jesus, line upon line, and precept upon precept, .... Making mistakes along the way, but receiving His help and forgiveness as we endure to the end. The experiential process of this changes our perception in the things we did not know, or corrects the things we believed in error.

So now then, instead of picking apart one piece of the puzzle that I had in a group of pieces already assembled, to show you a part of our big picture, why not take a closer look at what I was trying to communicate by putting this piece called "having perfect humility" back where I placed it, and see how it pertains to the greater concept I was displaying. You will find the answer to another negative comment you made about maintaining our salvation.

 

[MormonFriend]

The gospel I follow has the Son of God commanding us to be perfect. I safely assume He includes being perfect in our grattitude. Did you see the following post and answer before you asked me this question?





You cry "foul!" as if you understand what perfection is. How can an imperfect person understand what perfection is? That understanding will come to us line upon line, and precept upon precept if and when God reveals it to you. In the mean time, we follow the admonitions of our Savior in faith, which is especially essential when we do not fully understand, but believe that understanding will come as we act with positive works to that end. We can only become more like Jesus, line upon line, and precept upon precept, .... Making mistakes along the way, but receiving His help and forgiveness as we endure to the end. The experiential process of this changes our perception in the things we did not know, or corrects the things we believed in error.

So now then, instead of picking apart one piece of the puzzle that I had in a group of pieces already assembled, to show you a part of our big picture, why not take a closer look at what I was trying to communicate by putting this piece called "having perfect humility" back where I placed it, and see how it pertains to the greater concept I was displaying. You will find the answer to another negative comment you made about maintaining our salvation.

And if you do not believe in the commandment to be perfect, you demonstrate how your gospel has been changed and you follow another gospel. I mean, it is right there in the bible.