LDS Mormon Racism

Rescued One · Jun 7, 2017

fatboys said:
What about Melchizedek

You don't know who Melchizedek is.

withwonderingawe · Jun 7, 2017

Phoebe Ann said:
You don't know who Melchizedek is.

I have know idea who these people are but they seem to be Christian, I don't know what the Book of the Bee is either but I do know that Joseph Smith never read it but came to the same conclusion " It seems that Melchizedek was really, Shem, the first born son of Noah."
Who was Melchizedek?

and there is this
"Who was this Melchizedek? We know very little of him through what is recorded in Holy Scripture, but the Jewish targums [Aramaic translations and paraphrases of the Old Testament which came into use after the exile (586 B.C.)] and other writings make it very clear that Jewish tradition identifies him as Noah=s firstborn son, Shem. Melchizedek is his throne name (just as Benedict XVI is the throne name of Joseph Ratzinger)." http://www.scborromeo.org/papers/melchizedek.pdf

Rescued One · Jun 8, 2017

withwonderingawe said:
I have know idea who these people are but they seem to be Christian, I don't know what the Book of the Bee is either but I do know that Joseph Smith never read it but came to the same conclusion " It seems that Melchizedek was really, Shem, the first born son of Noah."
Who was Melchizedek?

and there is this
"Who was this Melchizedek? We know very little of him through what is recorded in Holy Scripture, but the Jewish targums [Aramaic translations and paraphrases of the Old Testament which came into use after the exile (586 B.C.)] and other writings make it very clear that Jewish tradition identifies him as Noah=s firstborn son, Shem. Melchizedek is his throne name (just as Benedict XVI is the throne name of Joseph Ratzinger)." http://www.scborromeo.org/papers/melchizedek.pdf

Your speculation is just plain nonsense.

Kiwi Christian · Jun 11, 2017

withwonderingawe said:
Ninth Article of Faith
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

The church is the bride of Christ and she's getting herself ready for her groom, but she is still missing a few jewels and her veil isn't on straight.

What does THAT have to do with God saying something will be an EVERLASTING covenant only to cancel it later on?

Kiwi Christian · Jun 11, 2017

withwonderingawe said:
The truth is we don't know why the priesthood was withheld

Sorry, but yes, we DO know why.

It is because the blacks were not valient in the pre-existence, right?

LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin" (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce R. McConkie, Bookcraft, 1958 edition, pp. 476-477; in second edition, 1966, p. 527; removed from 1979 edition).

"Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them . . ."

"Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned . . . " (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, Bookcraft, 1958 edition, p. 477; changed in later editions).

Jane_Doe · Jun 11, 2017

Kiwi Christian said:
Sorry, but yes, we DO know why.

It is because the blacks were not valient in the pre-existence, right?

No.

Your "citation" for this isn't even an LDS published reference. Here you are striving to "inform" actual members of a faith what they believe, without even doing your homework to cite a correct reference. It's a really weak case.

withwonderingawe · Jun 11, 2017

Kiwi Christian said:
Sorry, but yes, we DO know why.

It is because the blacks were not valient in the pre-existence, right?

LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin" (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce R. McConkie, Bookcraft, 1958 edition, pp. 476-477; in second edition, 1966, p. 527; removed from 1979 edition).

"Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them . . ."

"Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned . . . " (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, Bookcraft, 1958 edition, p. 477; changed in later editions).

There is some history with McConkie's book. When he published it in 1966 he was not an Apostles and it was never considered "the word of God". Many of the Quorum of the Twelve were not happy about it precisely because of this reason, it tried to set doctrine in stone when

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

Paul wrote that we see through a glass darkly, he knew in part. We simply do not know at this time God's reasons for why some are born in a jungle and another in Trump Tower.

Many in the Church disagreed with McConkie's reasoning and how e and others came to their conclusion. Joseph Smith disagreed and Brigham Young who instituted the ban disagreed. Young said one day they would receive the priesthood, all of the Temple blessings and more.

I feel McConkie based his reasoning on some faulty assumptions. This will be hard for you to understand because you don't believe in a pre-earth life and you do not accept the passages I'll be quoting from as scripture, but I want you to understand why I feel McConkie was wrong.

1, His reasoning was drawn from what happens at death, we are judged by our actions here. If we accept Jesus here and follow his word then in the next life we gain a greater reward. McConkie applied that doctrine to the pre-existence. If we were valiant in our pre-earth life then we got a great reward here.

2,He also took two passages from the Book of Abraham and tried to make them fit. Abraham sees the pre-existenceing spirits and learns " if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other" so we are not all the same, we each have varying amounts of abilities. He is also shown "and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones" who would be made the rulers. He reasoned that some of us are just greater spirits than others, which is true to a point.

3, Also Abraham writes about the priest of Egypt who McConkie believed had the mark of Cain and says and those who came through the family of Ham.

26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.
27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;

So from this McConkie and others drew the conclusions that all blacks could not receive the priesthood and it was tied to their pre-earth life.

Now where did he go wrong.

1, There is no scripture supporting the idea that some were more valiant, instead the Lord taught Joseph Smith;

"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be....Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning..." D&C 93

2, Yes I believe we all have varying amounts of abilities and weaknesses however we attain perfection through Christ. Paul prayed about the thorn in his side and the Lord answered;

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. 2 Cor 12

In the Book of Mormon it says
"And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them." Ether 12

Through the grace of Christ all of our weakness even those we brought with us into this life will be made strong and we will attain perfection.

Plus many of the great and nobles ones who became his rulers are not righteous men, they become corrupt and they will be held accountable. Many more very unassuming people are righteous followers of Christ. Who we were in our pre-earth life does not determine what our final judgement will be.

3, I feel like McConkie didn't read the whole chapter of Abraham 1 or it went right over his head, like so many of us we have preconceived ideas and he saw only what he wanted to see. Abraham was talking about the patriarchal order of the priesthood.

"I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right where unto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, ....I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers....even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me."

The priesthood was passed through a patriarchal order. As I said earlier in the beginning all of Adam's sons would have been given the priesthood and then passed it down through their sons.

Cain lost his priesthood when he committed murder so he had no priesthood to pass on. When we get to Noah he only passes the priesthood on to Shem, both Ham and Japheth are band from the priesthood.

In chapter 1 of Abraham he explains that some of his own fathers had turned to idolatry, see Joshua 24. So even though they held a right to the receive the priesthood they were not given it. He receives his own priesthood through Shem/Melchizedek . Technically one of Cain's sons could have gone to Adam and asked for the priesthood as Abraham did to Shem.

Now you will note that in 1979 what McConkie had written was removed from his book that's because now as an Apostle he disavowed it;

"There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, “You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?” And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.

We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.

It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year, 1978. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the Gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the Gentiles...."

It's okay for a man of God to come to a greater understanding, that's what revelation is all about.

Ironhold · Jun 11, 2017

Kiwi Christian said:
"Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned . . . " (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, Bookcraft, 1958 edition, p. 477; changed in later editions).

It was changed because the 1958 edition was *not* officially sanctioned; it was a side project McConkie undertook of his own personal volition, and so because he was doing it by himself he didn't have official oversight. The end result is that much of what made it in there was his own personal beliefs, not official church policy.

This is rather basic knowledge.

Kiwi Christian · Jun 11, 2017

withwonderingawe said:
There is some history with McConkie's book. When he published it in 1966 he was not an Apostles and it was never considered "the word of God".

Come on, you KNOW there are many references, not just brucie. The church DID publish the book, BTW.

You know full well that blacks have the mark of cain. THATS why they ( according to God ) could NEVER hold the priesthood.

that is, until the blacks got a wallet and checkbook.

PLEASE lets not get into "thats not doctrine". you know full well a prophet does NOT have to say "thus saith the Lord".

There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66; emphasis added).

Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,270; History of the Church, 5: 218; emphasis added).

"Thursday, 8--Held Mayor's court and tried two negroes for attempting to marry two white women: fined one $25, and the other $5" (ibid., 6: 210).

and the rebellious [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s in the slave states. . . " (Millennial Star, 22:602; emphasis added).

What was that mark? It was a mark of blackness. That mark rested upon Cain, and descended upon his posterity from that time until the present. To day there are millions of the descendants of Cain, through the lineage of Ham, in the world, and that mark of darkness still rest upon them (Millennial Star, 51:339; emphasis added).

Among the Saints [Mormons] is the most likely place for these [pre-existent] spirits to take their tabernacles, through a just and righteous parentage [white parentage]. They are sent to that people that are the most righteous of any other people upon the earth. . . . The Lord has not kept them in store for five or six thousand years past, and kept them waiting for their bodies all this time to send them among the Hottentots, the African negroes, the idolatrous Hindoos, or any other of the fallen nations of the earth. They are not kept in reserve in order to come forth to receive such a degraded parentage [African negroes] upon the earth; no, the Lord is not such a being (Journal of Discourses, 1:63; emphasis added)

President Woodruff added, 'The Lord said, 'I will not kill Cain, but I will put a mark upon him, and that mark will be seen upon every face of every Negro, upon the face of the earth. And it is the decree of God that [the] mark should remain upon the seed of Cain, until the seed of Able shall be redeemed, and Cain shall not receive the Priesthood until the time of that redemption. Any man having one drop of the blood of Cain in him cannot receive the Priesthood' (Race Problems-- As They Affect the Church, address given by Mark E. Peterson at BYU; emphasis added)

Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the negroes, and those spirits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born through that lineage (ibid.,109; 1966 org. ed., changed in the current ed.; emphasis added).

Cain, Ham, and the whole negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry (ibid., 114; current ed.; emphasis added)

1 Nephi 11:13 (Mary) "she was exceedingly fair and white."

1 Nephi 12:23 (prophecy of the Lamanites) " became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations."

1 Nephi 13:15 (Gentiles) "they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people [Nephites] before they were slain."

2 Nephi 5:21 "a sore cursing . . . as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

2 Nephi 30:6 (prophecy to the Lamanites if they repented) "scales of darkness shall begin to fall. . . . they shall be a white and delightsome people" ("white and delightsome" was changed to "pure and delightsome" in 1981).

Jacob 3:5 (Lamanites cursed) "whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins. . . ."

Jacob 3:8-9 "their skins will be whiter than yours... revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins. . . ."

Alma 3:6 "And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion."

Alma 3:9 "whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed."

Alma 3:14 (Lamanites cursed) "set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed. . . ."

Alma 23:18 "[Lamanites] did open a correspondence with them [Nephites] and the curse of God did no more follow them."

3 Nephi 2:14-16 "Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites and . . . became exceedingly fair. . . . "

3 Nephi 19:25, 30 (Disciples) "they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness. . . . nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof… and behold they were white, even as Jesus."

Mormon 5:15 (prophecy about the Lamanites) "for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us. . . ."

Moses 7:8 "a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan. . . ."

Moses 7:12 "Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were [i.e., except] the people of Canaan, to repent. . . ."

Moses 7:22 ".for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them."

Abraham 1:21 " king of Egypt [Pharaoh] was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth."

Abraham 1:27 "Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood. . . ." (emphasis added to above citations).

Kiwi Christian · Jun 11, 2017

Ironhold said:
It was changed because the 1958 edition was *not* officially sanctioned; it was a side project McConkie undertook of his own personal volition, and so because he was doing it by himself he didn't have official oversight. The end result is that much of what made it in there was his own personal beliefs, not official church policy.

This is rather basic knowledge.

Of COURSE thats what the mormon "church" told you.

Ironhold · Jun 11, 2017

Kiwi Christian said:
Of COURSE thats what the mormon "church" told you.

No, that's actual history. Even non-Mormon sources are saying that. Want an example? Mormon Doctrine (book) - Wikipedia . Wikipedia. Shazam.

Half the sources you're citing aren't canon. Period.

As far as the Book of Mormon quotes, you're ignoring the fact that "white" is an old synonym for "pure". It's English Lit 101.

Kiwi Christian · Jun 11, 2017

Ironhold said:
No, that's actual history. Even non-Mormon sources are saying that. Want an example? Mormon Doctrine (book) - Wikipedia . Wikipedia. Shazam.

Half the sources you're citing aren't canon. Period.

As far as the Book of Mormon quotes, you're ignoring the fact that "white" is an old synonym for "pure". It's English Lit 101.

Wow, is this the same wikipedia that anyone can edit?! LOL

Ironhold · Jun 11, 2017

Kiwi Christian said:
Wow, is this the same wikipedia that anyone can edit?! LOL

I gave you an example of a non-Mormon source. I see that you simply handwaved it.

withwonderingawe · Jun 11, 2017

Kiwi Christian said:
Come on, you KNOW there are many references, not just brucie. The church DID publish the book, BTW.

No it was published by Bookcraft, members of the Church owned it but it was never church owned.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Doctrine_(book)

LDS Mormon Racism

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