LDS Mormon Racism

[Rescued One]

but we believe they can receive it vicariously and 'the last shall be first and the first shall be last', that was what I was taught in my Mormon seminary, a righteous black men sealed to his wife would get into the Celestial Kingdom before I would.

There is no verse that says a black person can or can't hold the priesthood, neither is there one that says the work will be done vicariously for those not worthy of the priesthood in this life.

 

[withwonderingawe]

There is no verse that says a black person can or can't hold the priesthood, neither is there one that says the work will be done vicariously for those not worthy of the priesthood in this life.

Don't think I used the words 'not worthy', I said a "righteous black man" but I'll add who was deigned the priesthood through no fault of his own. BY said that one day they would have all the blessings of the priesthood and then some.

Eph 1
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

All not just some!

 

[Rescued One]

The truth is we don't know why the priesthood was withheld but I have my opinion based on a very lose story line which weaves in and out of the Bible with a lot of additions.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the restitution of all things spoken by the prophets from the time of Adam, so we have to go back that far. At that time the priesthood was passed father to son, all of his sons. Cain had the priesthood, he preformed sacrifices until he sinned and then he lost it so he could not pass it on to his children.

Mormons give the priesthood to men whose fathers are not Mormons.

Cain's first sin was undoubtedly committed before he killed his brother.

There is no evidence that Adam and his sons, including Cain, held any priesthood.

...He then ordained his apostles and they ordained Elders throughout the Church. But because of apostasy this Melchisedec order was lost and taken from the earth for 2000 years. So for all of the history of the Priesthood only a small handful of men have ever held the priesthood, Cain and his descendants were not separated out for special treatment.

From the Book of Moses:
Moses 1
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
(Note: Mormon god failed in his goal and put a roadblock in front of black Africans and their descendants. If it was not the Lord's doing, several of your prophets should have been ex-communicated. )

From Gospel Principles:

Heavenly Father has given us the law of eternal marriage so we can become like Him. The Lord has said:
". . . there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people . . . (Moses 7:8)."

"And . . . they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them (Moses 7:22)."

"In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees.

"And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

"And if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D&C 131:1-3).

Gospel Principles, 1978, 2009, p. 220

The real problem is that to hold the priesthood one must have self-determination. You are required to honor it by making covenants and accepting positions in the church when called upon. Although the priesthood is considered a blessing it is also a burden. The Lord can not bless you with an eternal marriage if your wife can be sold away, you can not be asked to be a Bishop if you are chained to the wall. There is also the point that 'where much is given much is expected', a priesthood holder will receive a harsher judgement if they rebel that someone who does not.

Now here is the question, did Brigham Young decided on his own to take the priesthood away from the blacks or was he directed by the Lord to do it until the black race was truly free and have self determination?

I'm sorry but self-determination is not a requirement for holding the priesthood. Many white men without self-determination have held it.

So, the real problem is NOT that to hold the priesthood one must have self-determination.

The problem is he never said and he did have a bigoted side to him. If the Lord had directed him to he should have presented that to the Quorum of the 12 apostles to make the change and he didn't. He just seems to have arbitrarily without any council or direction from the Lord made the decision.

Like I said, he should have been ex-communicated!

On the other hand I can see the Lord doing it not wanting to add any more burdens to a black man than he already had, life was tough enough.

Give me a break!

Within the Church because there wasn't any clear answer many different myths arose trying to explain why they couldn't hold the priesthood. All of those myths have been rejected and I think the church is settling on the answer that we sinned, we as church members like the people in the Book of Mormon were bigots and we are now since 1978 opening our hearts to a great understanding of God's love.

Unbelievable! My mother wasn't even a church going person and she never understood bigotry on the basis of skin color!

Matthew 22
39 ..."Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Luke 6
"31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise."

1 John 4
" 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another."

 

[Rescued One]

Don't think I used the words 'not worthy', I said a "righteous black man" but I'll add who was deigned the priesthood through no fault of his own.

Deigned should be denied, I presume. Those who are denied the priesthoof are deemed unworthy. And many unworthy white men are given the priesthood. The priesthood holder who ordains another person doesn't know if the recipient is worthy or not.

 

[Rescued One]

but we believe they can receive it vicariously and 'the last shall be first and the first shall be last', that was what I was taught in my Mormon seminary, a righteous black men sealed to his wife would get into the Celestial Kingdom before I would.

Its no surprise that you were given a false teaching. You should have realized that right then and there.

 

[Rescued One]

Does time matter? If so, then we can pretty much let it go. If it doesn't, then a lot more denominations are guilty of the same and much worse. Those so called prophets were a product of their times. Times changed.

Get over it. Sin is sin. We follow God and examine the scriptures to see if what a leader is saying is true!

 

[fatboys]

Get over it. Sin is sin. We follow God and examine the scriptures to see if what a leader is saying is true!

Take your blinders off. Sin is disobedience of a person who not onl knows the law but understands the law and the consequences. An infant cannot sin.

 

[Rescued One]

Take your blinders off. Sin is disobedience of a person who not onl knows the law but understands the law and the consequences. An infant cannot sin.

This thread isn't about infants. It's about racism.

 

[dzheremi]

 

[Rescued One]

Good video!

The Book of Mormon had to undergo changes!
Church removes racial references in Book of Mormon headings

You can't even believe Mormon scripture!

 

[disciple1]

"Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them... Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..." note: it was taught that even "one drop of Negro blood" would prevent a person from holding the priesthood or marrying in the temple. - Later Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, 1954

"those assigned to a dishonorable body on this earth came through the accursed lineage of Canaan through Ham's wife who was a descendent of the first murderer Cain,..." - That Ye May Not Be Deceived, pg. 6-7.

"And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Hams' wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representative upon the earth as well as God." - John Taylor (third prophet and President) Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, pg. 304.

"God has commanded Israel not to intermarry.To go against this commandment of God would be in sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come.

This is spiritual death.... The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them. 'No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood.'

(Peterson is quoting 2nd prophet Brigham Young here.)

It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same.

If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children.
To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a 'Nation of Priesthood holders.'" - Race Problems -- As They Affect The Church, Address by APOSTLE Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.

"For instance, the descendants of Cain cannot cast off their skin of blackness, at once, and immediately, although every soul of them should repent,... Cain and his posterity must wear the mark which God put upon them; and his white friends may wash the race of Cain with fuller's soap every day, they cannot wash away God's mark;...." - Mormon Publication: Millennial Star, Vol. 14, pg. 418.


"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will ALWAYS be so." Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.


" . . . after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation a upon a the earth as well as God;.... " Journal of Discourses, Volume 22, page 304.

Acts chapter 17 verse 26
From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
Mormon isn't even Christian, and the book of Mormon is false.
1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers many sins.

I hope God show's himself as black to people who think that.

 

[Rescued One]

Acts chapter 17 verse 26
From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
Mormon isn't even Christian, and the book of Mormon is false.
1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers many sins.

I hope God show's himself as black to people who think that.

The Father has not flesh and bones.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Mormons give the priesthood to men whose fathers are not Mormons.

Jesus was not the father of his Apostles, nor was Paul the father of the many Elders he ordained. There was a new way to obtain the priesthood, by oath or ordination.

Cain's first sin was undoubtedly committed before he killed his brother.

Probably so but he was cut off from the Lord for murder,

"....and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3

There is no evidence that Adam and his sons, including Cain, held any priesthood.

Gen 4
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

To make an offering someone had to have the priesthood.

Note: Mormon god failed in his goal and put a roadblock in front of black Africans and their descendants.

No he actually made it easier and a point of the gospel you must have never learned;

Jacob 2- 3, he is directing this at the sinful Nephites but lets place Cain and Enos children into the mix;

Behold, ye/Enos' children have done greater iniquities than the Cainites , our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; ......neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness/sinfulness ; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness/sinfulness came because of their father Cain.
Wherefore, ye shall remember your children, how that ye have grieved their hearts because of the example that ye have set before them; and also, remember that ye may, because of your filthiness, bring your children unto destruction, and their sins be heaped upon your heads at the last day."

The Bible also teaches "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" James 4:17 and Rom 5 :13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law...."

The principle is if a man's father is a bad example and teaches him to sin then his sins will be placed on the head of his father. So all of Cain is a son of perdition meaning all of his children's sin are placed on his head because he was a bad example. Laman and Lemual are also sons of perdition, their childrens sins are placed on their head.

Their children's judgement day will not be as hard as Eno's children who were taught the gospel and had the priesthood.

In the 138 sec of the Doctrine and Covenants President Joseph F. Smith sees into the spirit world and all of those who never heard of Jesus in this life being taught the Gospel and says they are "heirs of salvation". Many many LDS black people today are doing their genealogy, going to the Temple to do the baptisms and then sealing husbands and wives together forever. They are not being denied eternal life at all.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Its no surprise that you were given a false teaching. You should have realized that right then and there.

So you don't think black men can go to heaven? you are confusing me???

 

[Rescued One]

Jesus was not the father of his Apostles, nor was Paul the father of the many Elders he ordained. There was a new way to obtain the priesthood, by oath or ordination.

Probably so but he was cut off from the Lord for murder,

"....and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3

1 John 3
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer...

Gen 4
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

To make an offering someone had to have the priesthood.

Wrong statement. There was no Levitical priesthood at that time.

No he actually made it easier and a point of the gospel you must have never learned;

Begging your pardon, but I learned your religion and saw that it was built on lies.

Those papyri that Joseph Smith purchased and pretended to translate into the Book of Abraham:

Abraham 1
21 Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.

22 From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land.

23 The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;

24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

25 Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.

26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;

 

[Rescued One]

David O. McKay
"In a letter written in 1947 when he was second counselor to President George Albert Smith, McKay outlined his own views of the basis of church policy denying priesthood to blacks. He cited one scriptural precedent for the policy, the well-known verse in the Book of Abraham, but stated that the complete rationale lay in the pre-existence. Declaring that God does not act unjustly, he postulated that conditions in that premortal existence were linked to birth through black African lineage. He did not, however, invoke a "less valiant in the War in Heaven" argument, or a curse relating to Cain, and thus differentiated his position from that of his more conservative colleagues. In a further departure, he allowed for the eventual reversal of the policy without restricting it to a postmortal period.

"In essence, McKay's 1947 position on the basis of the policy remained intact through the rest of his life, perhaps softening in one respect: He may have rejected his earlier speculation about a link to the pre-existence. This was suggested in a 1961 news conference in England where, when asked by a reporter about the policy, he replied that it rested solely on the Book of Abraham. "That is the only reason," he said. "It is founded on that." Upon becoming church president in 1951, McKay became increasingly concerned, not about the validity of the policy, but with the fairness with which it was being applied. He was particularly focused on South Africa where existing policy required male members desiring ordination to demonstrate first that all their ancestry was non-African. In other words, "guilty unless proven innocent." The inability or unwillingness of white members in the South African Mission to undergo such an ordeal had resulted in a critical shortage of priesthood, to the point of compromising regular church function...

"To him, a policy could be changed, albeit in this case only upon receipt of a revelation, whereas a doctrine could not be changed. The subtlety of that difference was not appreciated by his colleagues.

"McKay clearly did not receive such a revelation. What is less clear, however, is that he sought such divine intervention unsuccessfully. One general authority recalled his saying privately that he had prayed and pleaded with the Lord, but 'I haven't had an answer.' "
"David O. McKay and Blacks," by Gregory A. Prince, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 2002, p. 146
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V35N01_157.pdf
That was his opinion on the matter.

 

[Rescued One]

...In 2 Nephi 26, Nephi teaches the people,
"...and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile."

So, if you think this is referring to priesthood, which females have been ordained to it?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Wrong statement. There was no Levitical priesthood at that time.

You're right they had the Melchizedek Priesthood

So, if you think this is referring to priesthood, which females have been ordained to it?

It's referring to the blessings which the Lord will give to all that come unto him, including the blessings of the Temple.

 

[Rescued One]

You're right they had the Melchizedek Priesthood.

Only one Person ever had or ever will have that Priesthood!

It's referring to the blessings which the Lord will give to all that come unto him, including the blessings of the Temple.

The temple was in Jersusalem. That was the only one God gave instructions to build.

 

[fatboys]

Only one Person ever had or ever will have that Priesthood!



The temple was in Jersusalem. That was the only one God gave instructions to build.

What about Melchizedek