LDS Mormon=Christian? Thread

lesliedellow

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I haven't studied Islam, but Mormons believe in multiple gods whereas Muslims have only one.

Well, that is the most glaringly obvious way in which Islam is by far the closer of the two to Christianity, but it is not the only one.
 
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Rescued One

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Well, that is the most glaringly obvious way in which Islam is by far the closer of the two to Christianity, but it is not the only one.

But being closer doesn't save. Jesus came to save those who have faith in His blood.

Christian Faith in the Blood.jpg Christian thankful for the blood.jpg

Christian Romans 5_9.jpg
 
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Ironhold

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Well, that is the most glaringly obvious way in which Islam is by far the closer of the two to Christianity, but it is not the only one.

Note the use of "gods" vs. "Gods" in the statement you were replying to.

In LDS theology, this is actually a very significant difference.

The lower-case is utilized as per Psalms 82 to refer to people who have achieved an exalted status but aren't actually God himself.
 
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dzheremi

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Note the use of "gods" vs. "Gods" in the statement you were replying to.

In LDS theology, this is actually a very significant difference.

The lower-case is utilized as per Psalms 82 to refer to people who have achieved an exalted status but aren't actually God himself.

In Mormon theology, do "people who have achieved an exalted status" thereafter die just like regular people do? Because that's what Psalm 82 says literally directly after the verse which says "Ye are gods". Verses 6 and 7 read:

I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.

Nevertheless ye shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.


+++

I was under the impression from having read as much in Mormon lesson manuals that the exaltation of faithful Mormons to godhood occurs after death, and is part of their experience of eternal life, meaning obviously that they wouldn't then die after being exalted.

Here's the quote directly from the linked lesson manual (emphasis added):


Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.

If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, to live with our Heavenly Father in eternal families. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give His children (see D&C 14:7).

Blessings of Exaltation
  • What are some blessings that will be given to those who are exalted?
Our Heavenly Father is perfect, and He glories in the fact that it is possible for His children to become like Him. His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

(End of quote)

What gives? Your religion's official lesson manual on the topic tells us that exaltation is all about immortality and eternal life for men, and you tell us that this is backed up in the Bible by Psalm 82's use of the word "gods" to refer to those who have been exalted, even though Psalm 82 literally says that the people described as such will die.

That makes no sense whatsoever.
 
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lesliedellow

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Note the use of "gods" vs. "Gods" in the statement you were replying to.

In LDS theology, this is actually a very significant difference.

The lower-case is utilized as per Psalms 82 to refer to people who have achieved an exalted status but aren't actually God himself.

“When you can thus feel, then you may begin to think that you can find out something about God, and begin to learn who he is. He is our Father—the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being.”

http://jod.mrm.org/7/331#333

There is plenty more where that came from. Mormonism simply isn’t a Christian religion, by any stretch of the imagination.
 
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"The Prophet Joseph Smith said:
'...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth' (Teachings,pp. 345-46; italics in original).

"President Brigham Young elaborated on this concept: 'It must be that God knows something about temporal things, and has a body and been on an earth; were it not so He would not know how to judge men righteously, according to the temptations and sins they have had to contend with' (as cited by Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, Apr. 1969, p. 130; or Improvement Era, June 1969, p. 104)."

Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 152
 
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Rescued One

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Joseph Smith said in his King Follett Sermon:

The Righteous to Dwell in Everlasting Burnings
These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng
 
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Ironhold

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In Mormon theology, do "people who have achieved an exalted status" thereafter die just like regular people do?

You're reading too much into it.

The reference back to the verse is establishing that the concept did indeed exist once upon a time and so people shouldn't be surprised by it.

If memory serves, Jesus himself refers back to it in John 10.

But basically, people who do indeed achieve an exalted status in Heaven will be godlike in nature, in pretty much every sense of the word.
 
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dzheremi

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You're reading too much into it.

By reading the very next verse after it...?

The reference back to the verse is establishing that the concept did indeed exist once upon a time and so people shouldn't be surprised by it.

How does it establish the concept if it isn't actually dealing with the same thing? That's the point of my question: You say it is evidence for the Mormon concept, but it contradicts Mormonism completely in the very next line. So how is it evidence for that? Just because it says "Ye are gods", regardless of whatever may come directly before or after it (i.e., context)?

If memory serves, Jesus himself refers back to it in John 10.

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one." 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

+++

In other words, you (accusing Jews) are called 'gods' in scripture for being the recipients of the scriptures, whereas I (Jesus) am sent by the Father directly, and yet you want to say that I am blaspheming for calling Myself the Son of God, as though I would not have the right to do so? You are called gods for much less, and not even anything that you have personally done, whereas I am actually doing the works of My Father and still you can't figure out Who I am.

When you look at it in this way, Ironhold, does it seem to be a very positive appraisal of those who are called 'gods'? Not really, right? But even more to the point, Christ is clearly not establishing anything like the Mormon soteriological plan here by simply saying "The scripture says this". He's reminding them of what the scriptures say in order to expose their own hypocrisy, not saying "And if you're good Mormons, you'll be exalted and become gods." Consider this: They're already called gods (that's the whole reason Jesus can reference it in the first place; it's in the preexisting scriptures of the day), and clearly they wouldn't be classed as good Mormons, as these same people are about to stone Him!

But basically, people who do indeed achieve an exalted status in Heaven will be godlike in nature, in pretty much every sense of the word.

This doesn't answer my question. If they will become gods, then how can Psalm 82 be a defense or instance of this doctrine found in the Bible since it says that they'll die just like regular people do? Do Mormonism's 'exalted-man gods' die? Is that why you have written "in pretty much every sense", rather than "in every sense"? If so, that's a rather large caveat, and it kinda makes exaltation sound pretty much just like being a regular, non-god person (only maybe you get your own planet or something; I've never been able to get a straight answer out of Mormons about that, either).
 
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Ironhold

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How does it establish the concept if it isn't actually dealing with the same thing? That's the point of my question: You say it is evidence for the Mormon concept, but it contradicts Mormonism completely in the very next line. So how is it evidence for that? Just because it says "Ye are gods", regardless of whatever may come directly before or after it (i.e., context)?

It's establishing that there's a difference between "god" and "God".

Reconsider things in that light.
 
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dzheremi

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What's to reconsider? I never said they were the same in the first place. That's not what I'm asking you about. I'm asking you a different question, about whether or not Mormon "gods" die, as that's what Psalm 82 says about those who are called "gods".

Can you please just answer that very simple question and stop diverting by writing about other things? It should be a very simple "yes" or "no" question, in accordance with what the Mormon religion actually teaches in its manuals, as already presented. Thank you.
 
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Ironhold

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What's to reconsider? I never said they were the same in the first place. That's not what I'm asking you about. I'm asking you a different question, about whether or not Mormon "gods" die, as that's what Psalm 82 says about those who are called "gods".

Can you please just answer that very simple question and stop diverting by writing about other things? It should be a very simple "yes" or "no" question, in accordance with what the Mormon religion actually teaches in its manuals, as already presented. Thank you.

I *am* giving you the answer.
 
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