More than words?

[dms1972]

PLease don't misunderstand what this [thread] is about from the title. I'll try and explain. For quite a while I have struggle with whether there is anything more than words and thinking and beliefs. I have sort of taught myself (developed a way of coping) to "know" there are things outside my mind (mind independent reality I suppose one could call it) I so I proceed on that sort of basis. And I read some books that reaffirm there is an objective reality. It just seems like i have to keep doing this.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Obviously you understand that thinking "exists"...so what is it that is doing the thinking if not a physical brain?

 

[dms1972]

I'll wait for a few answers thanks.

 

[quatona]

PLease don't misunderstand what this read is about from the title. I'll try and explain for quite a while I have struggle with whether there is anything more than words and thinking and beliefs. I have sort of taught myself (developed a way of coping) to "know" there are things outside my mind (mind independent reality I suppose one could call it) I so I proceed on that sort of basis. And I read some books that reaffirm there is an objective reality. It just seems like i have to keep doing this.

What difference would it make, practically?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Sounds a bit like neopragmatism, or postmodernism, but i could never quite understand it (that school of thought).

What you're describing seems to be more like a psychological predisposition, though, rather than a philosophy you've come to after time spent thinking.

So a rational solution may not be the "answer" - rather learning to live with yourself in a more content manner?

 

[Catherineanne]

PLease don't misunderstand what this read is about from the title. I'll try and explain for quite a while I have struggle with whether there is anything more than words and thinking and beliefs. I have sort of taught myself (developed a way of coping) to "know" there are things outside my mind (mind independent reality I suppose one could call it) I so I proceed on that sort of basis. And I read some books that reaffirm there is an objective reality. It just seems like i have to keep doing this.

Sometimes it helps to just live 'as if', rather than waiting for proof.

 

[pshun2404]

Obviously you understand that thinking "exists"...so what is it that is doing the thinking if not a physical brain?

Consciousness is not the product of synaptic function...the Brain and nervous system are the hardware communicating the program, nothing more...the brain is like the tuner where the signal and purpose of the program is directed.

 

[pshun2404]

Here is a conversation I had previously...

But this is how Neurology works. We evoke particular emotional or rational responses from people, and examine which part of the brain is responsible.

Yes this is how Neurologists INTERPRET this. They conclude the brain is the cause, say of love, but it is just as likely that "love" is the cause of the brain’s and endocrine responses.

Except that this explanation has one clear problem: it does not offer any explanation for what love is or where it comes from.

Yes it does…but you will reject it! Spirit or "life" is a quality of reality separate from matter energy, that acts on certain constructs of matter.

We can make no predictions based on this.

Sure you can, you can predict likely behavioral choices and responses. Science (which I love) can only address these after they occur.

And, of course, it's also not just as likely, because all the research done into how our brain interacts with our consciousness implies very heavily that the brain is the basis of all consciousness.

Note in your own “explanation” (the human factor)

a) the Brain and consciousness “interact”. But logically if that first premise is necessarily true, then

b) the Brain cannot be the basis (cause) OF consciousness. (might be, could be, but not IS)

In my view, the brain is like the tuner or hardware which receives and interprets/directs that quality you call consciousness (life being a vitalizing principle that acts upon certain structures of matter)

Your unfounded preconceived belief that “spirit” or “life” is the result of evolved matter dictates your conclusion. I am not limited to that view.

But Brain structure offers us a strong warning sign for psychopathy.

Yes, exactly! If the software or wiring in one section is damaged or shuts down it will obviously not work properly and thus interprets or directs the signal improperly.

The brain is merely the hardware. Correct or fix the hardware and it will do what the programmer and software originally intended.

Damage or disconnect a section of the hardware containing information, instruction, or memory relative to a particular function and that function becomes inoperable, disturbed, and may be permanently lost.

If it is a section controlling or directing a secondary function (say the movement of certain parts) they cease to work properly (possibly not at all).

This however does not automatically equal that the hardware IS the cause of the programmer or software it draws upon and relies on. Such a conclusion (that this means it is or must be the cause) is what we call an “invalid derivation.”

All subsequent conclusions relying on the invalid derivation as if it is unquestionably true will contain some degree of that invalid derivation...

 

[dms1972]

. re-reading. I replied too quickly. Sorry

 

[GrowingSmaller]

IMO evil is anti-life tendency or action. The murderer is labelled "evil" because he kills. The soldier is "good" because he defends others.

How we go from there to a normal distribution curve I am not sure.

I am more into an analogy with ecological networks. Peoples ecological (or social and poitical) context can help understand their attributed moral-valence (good or bad).

valence: "A one-dimensional value assigned to an object, situation, or state, that can usually be positive or negative."

 

[dms1972]

Hold on please. I want to consider Pshun's comments

If this goes too quick it may not help anyone.

 

[dms1972]

If the software or wiring in one section is damaged.

Ok what are we talking about when we are talking about or using analogies?

I know you are using an illustration of sorts, the brain doesn't have metal wires as such.

I think humans may have several things going on.

In an computer program lots of things are set up initially: constants, variables, then there are functions (dependent on the language, and sometimes its possible to set up functions). There are also procedures, sub-routines, and more (I used to write computer programs, but its been a while)

Additionally computers have operating systems, and BIOS.

A radio program is quite different, it is a broadcast. its a way of making something (a conversation, music or whatever) available at another location as I understand it.

I am uncertain if the analogies are helpful, why not just talk about what goes on in the brain as it is.

IMO The analogies make it sound at times simpler than it is?

 

[dms1972]

life being a vitalizing principle that acts upon certain structures of matter

can you say more about what you mean here?

 

[dms1972]

can help understand their attributed moral-valence (good or bad).

can you explain this in other words.

 

[dms1972]

I do beleive there is an extramental world. I tend to go with a Thomist epistemology, ie Josef Pieper.

 

[SkyWriting]

PLease don't misunderstand what this [thread] is about from the title. I'll try and explain. For quite a while I have struggle with whether there is anything more than words and thinking and beliefs. I have sort of taught myself (developed a way of coping) to "know" there are things outside my mind (mind independent reality I suppose one could call it) I so I proceed on that sort of basis. And I read some books that reaffirm there is an objective reality. It just seems like i have to keep doing this.

Yes, it takes some repetition. But your mind may not be right and there is not.
Just keep telling yourself what you want to believe.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Consciousness is not the product of synaptic function...the Brain and nervous system are the hardware communicating the program, nothing more...the brain is like the tuner where the signal and purpose of the program is directed.

No.

The brain causes consciousness, that much is clear.

 

[SkyWriting]

No.

The brain causes consciousness, that much is clear.

It does seem to contain it....but not in all circumstances.
Many people say "murky."

 

[Ana the Ist]

It does seem to contain it....but not in all circumstances.

Oh? I've never heard of this...

Give me one example of an "outside of the brain" consciousness.

 

[FireDragon76]

Oh? I've never heard of this...

Give me one example of an "outside of the brain" consciousness.

Out of body experiences?