More studying about Communion

[TCat]

I mean these concepts of "means of grace" are new to me. I am eager to learn but want to be certain that I understand.

 

[porterross]

Flip over to page 228....2nd paragraph:

"The chief purpose of the Sacrament is to assure and offer to each communicant the forgiveness of his sins. To earn this forgiveness, Christ gave His body and shed His blood on the cross."

I'm sure the pastors can further address your questions.

 

[DaRev]

I mean these concepts of "means of grace" are new to me. I am eager to learn but want to be certain that I understand.

If you are new to the Lutheran Church, I believe there are much better books than that to start out with.

 

[TCat]

Oh yes, His sacrifice earned out forgiveness without a doubt. But my question is whether or not Communion continues to offer forgiveness by it's very action or is it about sealing and reminding us of the promise He gave by our faith in Him.

Kind of like baptism, we only do it once but remind ourselves of the promise of it frequently. We are not rebaptised nor do we believe that rebaptism continues to offer forgiveness.

I am not denying the wonder and presence of God in the Lord's Supper! But asking if it is a constant renewal of forgiveness or a constant reminder of His grace for what He has Done.

 

[TCat]

But for those who have read it, and for what it says word for word from the text is it correct or not?

 

[TCat]

In the end I don't suppose it is that important. It is by faith we are saved and not of ourselves.

Forgive me for being like a dog with a bone here, but I have a tendency to worry the last shred of meat off the thing before being satisfied. My girlfriend is always telling me to shut up in Bible study because I HAVE to know the answers.

Sorry

 

[porterross]

Actually I am on 227 #17

The power to convey this grace and forgiveness lies not in the bread and wine, nor in the body and blood of Christ, otherwise also the unworthy would recieve these blessings(1Cor 11:27-29). The assurance of grace is given us through these words: "Given and shed for you for the remission of sins." The body and blood of Christ serve as a seal to make this promise more sure to us.

Forgivenss of sins is given us in the Sacrament not in the sense that we did not have any before; for a believer has forgiveness as long as he has faith.-Nor do we recieve a new supply of forgiveness every time we go to the Lord's Table; for forgiveness and grace are not offered in parts and portions; either we have it for all sins, or for none; either we stand in the grace of God, or we do not.

So do we have the promise and gift of mercy and grace inspite of our sins for as long as we have faith, or do we run out of grace each time we sin and need to renew it for fear of being out of grace if we should die before the chance to recieve a fresh supply of forgiveness?

I know this is making black and white a question that is not so easily answered but I am trying to understand new concepts of Means and what Lutheran teaching says about such things.

You left out a very important part of this protion of the text though. Continuing on with the last part of that whole paragraph:

"Nor is there a difference in the gift itself, whether offered in Baptism or in the Lord's Supper or in the Gospel. -- But there is a difference in the manner and mode of assuring and confirming this gift of grace to us. In the Holy Supper, Christ deals with each communicant individually and pesonally and seals to him His promise of grace and forgiveness."

 

[TCat]

I know, I got tired of typing, and it seemed to continue on with the premiss of Communion being a SEAL of the promise of grace and forgiveness already given which is what I am asking in the first place.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

I suggest you might want to read my thread, Luther on the Reception of the Lord's Supper. It is a posting of some of his sermon dealing with the Lord's Supper. Or you may want to read the whole thing. Google his sermons and look for his sermons on the Sacraments. They are very instructive. I don't recall the exact title.

Both Luther's Large catechism and Koehler's annotated Small Catechism would be very good resources to enlist.

Peace,
Cos

 

[LilLamb219]

We do have Christ's complete and full forgiveness! It doesn't run out for us, nor does God remove it from us.

But think of who we are. We are sinful human beings who, by nature, are children of wrath. Our very nature wants to turn away from God and God keeps turning us to Him.

Luther said that when we turn away, the Holy Spirit will use the Law to convict us of our sins. In our contrition, we lose sight of the Gospel (not always...but we have a NEED for that forgiveness given to us in the Gospel). God always provides even though He has given it to us completely already, He's ready to keep giving it to us so that we can grow in faith.

Even though we have His all, He gives us even more

It's not because the Gospel was insufficient the first time. It's just that our faith waivers and it's the Gospel that strengthens and renews that faith. Thankfully, God gives us this Gospel in His Supper and even says the words "for you".

So, we do receive the actual forgiveness at the table...not because we were left without, oh no. It's because we keep turning away from Him and He feeds us with life through His body and blood. If we were to die without having Holy Communion on our deathbed, we would still be saved because our faith grasps onto Christ, the cross, the forgiveness of sins, our redemption and the resurrection which is our hope for eternal life. We have been baptized and God has made us His.

Actually I am on 227 #17

The power to convey this grace and forgiveness lies not in the bread and wine, nor in the body and blood of Christ, otherwise also the unworthy would recieve these blessings(1Cor 11:27-29). The assurance of grace is given us through these words: "Given and shed for you for the remission of sins." The body and blood of Christ serve as a seal to make this promise more sure to us.

Forgivenss of sins is given us in the Sacrament not in the sense that we did not have any before; for a believer has forgiveness as long as he has faith.-Nor do we recieve a new supply of forgiveness every time we go to the Lord's Table; for forgiveness and grace are not offered in parts and portions; either we have it for all sins, or for none; either we stand in the grace of God, or we do not.

So do we have the promise and gift of mercy and grace inspite of our sins for as long as we have faith, or do we run out of grace each time we sin and need to renew it for fear of being out of grace if we should die before the chance to recieve a fresh supply of forgiveness?

I know this is making black and white a question that is not so easily answered but I am trying to understand new concepts of Means and what Lutheran teaching says about such things.

 

[porterross]

I know, I got tired of typing, and it seemed to continue on with the premiss of Communion being a SEAL of the promise of grace and forgiveness already given which is what I am asking in the first place.

I think you're trying to read too much into each of his statements that might seem contrary instead of the overall that he is teaching, which is forgiveness through the Sacrament of the altar just as Scripture teaches. You seem to be completely disregarding the mystery of the reception of the elements which is what we accept. We take it to be exactly what Christ said it was, nothing added and certainly nothing taken away.

If Koehler's words are confusing you, go back to the Scripture he cites or try this report on the theology of the Lord's Supper.

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/Theol_lord_supper1.pdf

Keep in mind also that Christ was quite adamant about our receiving and ingesting His body and blood and spoke of it before He instituted the means of grace.

John 6:41-58

Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven."

They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?"

Jesus answered and said to them,

"Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life.

Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."



Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"



So Jesus said to them,

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.

This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."

He abides in us and we in Him through the elements. This can only occur because He died for our salvation which is granted by the forgiveness of our sins. We are not capable of paying this price. Only His sacrifice offers this. Therefore, receiving and ingesting His flesh and blood is our receipt of that forgiveness.

It's the most profound, tangible aspect of our joining with Him and acknowledgement of His sacrifice for our sake that we can receive. It is the purest love we'll ever know and it is absolutely wholly between you and Christ at that moment as it is the two of you who are aware of all your sins. He takes them upon Himself as you acknowledge His receipt of them and the price He had to pay.

There is nothing so beautiful and necessary as we allow ourselves to be our most vulnerable before Him, offering our lives to Him in exchange for what He's done for us. If that's not acceptance of forgiveness, we're in trouble.

I hope my ramblings help some.
I take the Lord's Supper a bit seriously on the intimacy level, because after all I've done, I know it's only offered because of how He loves me.

 

[TCat]

Thank you for your last post porterross, I appreciate what you wrote.

I guess that never having looked at the Lord's Supper as a means of absolution and a way to continue to maintain salvation it is difficult for me to understand it.

Coming from different teachings, Methodist, which look at the Lord's Supper as a way that God uses to remind us of His sacrifice and promises and being taught that we recieved total forgiveness upon faith alone without anything else. It is sometimes difficult to discern the truth.

But I am researching and praying for wisdom in these and other matters and I am glad to have this forum where I can ask questions.

Thanks

 

[DaRev]

Christ won for us forgiveness and salvation at the cross on Calvary. It's not that we lose it and need to replenish it but rather that Christ continues to give it to us through the Means of Grace of word and sacrament.