more questions...lesson readings

[tagyourit]

In the LCMS, is there a standard for who can read the lessons? Men only or doesn't matter?

 

[Aibrean]

I don't think WELS allows women lectors. Our church is LCMS and does not, and those in this directory do not allow women lectors: Evangelical-Lutheran Liturgical Congregations

 

[goldbeach]

In the LCMS, is there a standard for who can read the lessons? Men only or doesn't matter?

The official position in the LCMS is what Aibrean says but the unofficial is what the autonomous congregations practice.

 

[DaRev]

The official position in the LCMS is what Aibrean says but the unofficial is what the autonomous congregations practice.

The official position of the LCMS is that women may serve as lectors since that is not considered a distinctive function of the pastoral office. This would involve reading the Old Testament and/or Epistle readings during the church service. The reading of the Gospel lesson is considered a proclamation of the Gospel which is considered a function of the pastoral office, and thus should only be read by men (preferably the presiding pastor). Individual congregations may or may not allow women to serve in that capacity.

 

[Aibrean]

My old church (also LCMS) allowed women to read from OT/Epistle. I know because I did (they selected members of the church and asked them to read).

 

[Studeclunker]

Every LCMS Church I've attended not only allowed, but encouraged our ladies to read the lessons. The Gospel was always read by the Pastor or whomever was filling in for him.

 

[alexnbethmom]

in my LCMS church, only my pastor ever reads the lessons....

 

[tagyourit]

Ok, thanks. With my PCA ( presbyterian church in america ) background, I'm still trying to work out the differences between LCMS and PCA in terms of Church gov't.

 

[goldbeach]

The official position of the LCMS is that women may serve as lectors since that is not considered a distinctive function of the pastoral office. This would involve reading the Old Testament and/or Epistle readings during the church service. The reading of the Gospel lesson is considered a proclamation of the Gospel which is considered a function of the pastoral office, and thus should only be read by men (preferably the presiding pastor). Individual congregations may or may not allow women to serve in that capacity.

Maybe I missed a newer resolution but this is the one that I'm familiar with.

Resolution 3-08A from the 2004 Convention states, “

Resolved, That the Synod affirm that women on the basis of the clear teaching of Scripture may not serve in the office of pastor nor exercise any of its distinctive functions, and that women may serve in humanly established offices in the church as long as the functions of these offices do not make them eligible to carry out “official functions [that] would involve public accountability for the function of the pastoral
office…”​

I see being a lector is a human established office and not part of the function of the pastoral office. And what is stressed in these verses following that a woman can "speak" in a divine service? 1 Corinthians 14 as well as in 1 Timothy 2:12. “Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over man; she is to keep silent.”​

In addition, the CTCR Document, ​

The Service of Women in Congregational and Synodical Offices of January 2005 where it quotes from the Augustana and the 1985 CTCR document. “Some of these functions [of the pastoral office] are ‘distinctive,’ for they entail the public exercise of the ministry of the Word and sacrament that has been assigned by God to this office for the nurture, care and equipping of His people. In summary form, the Augsburg Confession asserts ‘that according to the Gospel the power of the keys or the power of bishops [pastors] is a power and command of God to preach the Gospel, to forgive and retain sins, and to administer and distribute the sacraments’ (AC XXVIII, 5; cf. 8-9, 21 etc.). We recognize that neither the Scriptures nor the Lutheran Confessions provide a detailed list of the activities required of pastors as they carry out these responsibilities in the Christian congregation which they are called to serve. However, intrinsic​

to this office of overseeing and shepherding of the flock are the following functions: 1) preaching in the services of the congregation; 2) leading the formal public services of worship; 3) the public administration of the sacraments; and 4) the public administration of the office of the keys.”​

 

[DaRev]

Maybe I missed a newer resolution but this is the one that I'm familiar with.

Resolution 3-08A from the 2004 Convention states, “

Resolved, That the Synod affirm that women on the basis of the clear teaching of Scripture may not serve in the office of pastor nor exercise any of its distinctive functions, and that women may serve in humanly established offices in the church as long as the functions of these offices do not make them eligible to carry out “official functions [that] would involve public accountability for the function of the pastoral
office…”​

I see being a lector is a human established office and not part of the function of the pastoral office. And what is stressed in these verses following that a woman can "speak" in a divine service? 1 Corinthians 14 as well as in 1 Timothy 2:12. “Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over man; she is to keep silent.”​

Being a lector is not an "office". Reading the OT and Epistle readings from the Bible are not distinctive functions of the pastoral office. The prohibition of women to "speak" or "teach or have authority" refers specifically to the one divinely established office in the Church, namely the pastoral office.​

In addition, the CTCR Document,

The Service of Women in Congregational and Synodical Offices of January 2005 where it quotes from the Augustana and the 1985 CTCR document. “Some of these functions [of the pastoral office] are ‘distinctive,’ for they entail the public exercise of the ministry of the Word and sacrament that has been assigned by God to this office for the nurture, care and equipping of His people. In summary form, the Augsburg Confession asserts ‘that according to the Gospel the power of the keys or the power of bishops [pastors] is a power and command of God to preach the Gospel, to forgive and retain sins, and to administer and distribute the sacraments’ (AC XXVIII, 5; cf. 8-9, 21 etc.). We recognize that neither the Scriptures nor the Lutheran Confessions provide a detailed list of the activities required of pastors as they carry out these responsibilities in the Christian congregation which they are called to serve. However, intrinsic to this office of overseeing and shepherding of the flock are the following functions: 1) preaching in the services of the congregation; 2) leading the formal public services of worship; 3) the public administration of the sacraments; and 4) the public administration of the office of the keys.”

Of those four functions listed, which of those do you believe entails reading the OT and Epistle lessons from the Bible? It's not preaching. It's not considered the proclamation of the Gospel. It's not leading the worship service. It's not administering or distributing the sacraments. So where does it fit?

 

[goldbeach]

The Service of Women in Congregational and Synodical Offices of January 2005 where it quotes from the Augustana and the 1985 CTCR document. “Some of these functions [of the pastoral office] are ‘distinctive,’ for they entail the public exercise of the ministry of the Word and sacrament that has been assigned by God to this office for the nurture, care and equipping of His people. In summary form, the Augsburg Confession asserts ‘that according to the Gospel the power of the keys or the power of bishops [pastors] is a power and command of God to preach the Gospel, to forgive and retain sins, and to administer and distribute the sacraments’ (AC XXVIII, 5; cf. 8-9, 21 etc.). We recognize that neither the Scriptures nor the Lutheran Confessions provide a detailed list of the activities required of pastors as they carry out these responsibilities in the Christian congregation which they are called to serve. However, intrinsic to this office of overseeing and shepherding of the flock are the following functions: 1) preaching in the services of the congregation; 2) leading the formal public services of worship; 3) the public administration of the sacraments; and 4) the public administration of the office of the keys.”
​

​

 

[DaRev]

2) leading the formal public services of worship; ​

​

How does reading from the Bible equate to leading the formal public services of worship?

 

[goldbeach]

[/indent]How does reading from the Bible equate to leading the formal public services of worship?

I guess it's up to interpretation on what "leading" involves and it also hinges on the bible verses I quoted which definitely states about "silence" for women in church. I'm not going to get into an argument about the interpretation or argue what the bible verses clearly state.

 

[DaRev]

I guess it's up to interpretation on what "leading" involves and it also hinges on the bible verses I quoted which definitely states about "silence" for women in church. I'm not going to get into an argument about the interpretation or argue what the bible verses clearly state.

When read in their given contexts, the Bible verses are indeed clear. And it's clear that they are referring to the one divinely instituted office in the Church, that being the pastoral office. That is the divinely established teaching and authority office in the Church.

 

[QuiltAngel]

I guess it's up to interpretation on what "leading" involves and it also hinges on the bible verses I quoted which definitely states about "silence" for women in church. I'm not going to get into an argument about the interpretation or argue what the bible verses clearly state.

What IS your definition of "leading?"

The Pastor leads the worship serve, lectors do not. Pastors are charged with preaching the the Gospel and administering the sacraments. As Rev said, the OT readings and the Epistle lessons are not preaching the Gospel.

At my LCMS church, the Pastor reads all the lessons.

 

[joyfulthanks]

This brings up a related question for me. I'm very conservative on this issue, so I'm not arguing for women pastors or lectors here, I'm just curious how we interpret these verses:

Acts 2:17 says, "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.'"

Acts 21:8-9 says, "On the next day we departed and came to Caesarea, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied."

According to A Summary of Christian Doctrine by Edward Koehler (a textbook used by the Concordia system to teach LCMS doctrine):

"A prophet is one who speaks for another, just as Aaron spoke to Pharaoh for Moses (Exodus 7:1). A prophet of God is one who speaks for God. He makes known and interprets the word and will of God to people. A prophet, therefore, is God's representative and ambassador to people (2 Corinthians 5:20).

What were these women doing, and it what context?

 

[Aibrean]

Aren't we all representatives of God?

 

[joyfulthanks]

Aren't we all representatives of God?

Definitely. But I wonder why Acts makes the distinction that these four daughters prophesied. If it just meant that they represented God in the ordinary context of life (as all of us do), wouldn't it just have said "He had four daughters"?

 

[DaRev]

To "prophesy" does not mean to "preach" or administer Sacraments. Women can and do minister to other women on certain levels.

 

[joyfulthanks]

To "prophesy" does not mean to "preach" or administer Sacraments. Women can and do minister to other women on certain levels.

Could it also mean to be a lector, as in "to make known...the Word of God" as in the above quote?