More PROOF that EX-GAY Minstries DON't WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MercyBurst · Jun 18, 2007

davedjy said:
You have yet to prove that homosexuality is "sin" according to the Bible. The word "homosexual" or one like it, was not used in the original Hebrew and Greek of the Bible, only a false translation in 1 Cor 6:9.

When human depravity reaches rock bottom -- it's a TOTALLY SAME SEX AFFAIR.

"Men burning in lust toward men" -- what else could it mean? Men are the same sex as men aren't they?

It doesn't say men burning in lust toward women.
It doesn't say men burning in lust toward boys.
It doesn't say men burning in lust toward girls.

vs. 27 says men burning in lust for men, after they left the natural use of the woman.

And the verse prior says women with women.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
pleasure Psa 10:3, 1st Cor 13:6

Why isn't male-on-female sex judged the same way under EXACTLY THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES?

You have NO ANSWER, because your excuses fail. Same sex is judged worse in the bible. Call it "tow 'ebah", "pederasty", "arsenokoites", whatever, and it's still judged worse than hetero sex under EXACTLY THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES. This proves beyond any resonable doubt that same sex is worse on any scale of depravity.

So go ahead and pick the scale of depravity you want to put same-sex on -- show how far down in the pit it goes. It only makes you look worse.

MercyBurst · Jun 19, 2007

Der Alter said:
Besides—and this is one thing that was never addressed in White’s book: If fornication is sin—that is, sex outside of marriage—wouldn’t that equally apply to heterosexual and homosexual relations? If Paul was not talking about homosexual behavior, shouldn’t he have sanctioned homosexual marriages? That thought never crossed his mind, nor Jesus’, and the silence is almost deafening. Is it really possible that God could have overlooked the needs of millions of homosexuals in the only book that is our final revelation of his will, just so that we could sort out what to do thousands of years later?

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=4494

Another thing he fails to address is that gay sex is always judged with the death penalty, whereas hetero sex is not judged with the death penalty UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES. Yes, ALL fornication is sin, but gay sex has a worse penalty.

livingword26 · Jun 19, 2007

2Ti 4:3-4
(3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
(4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

MercyBurst · Jun 19, 2007

livingword26 said:
2Ti 4:3-4
(3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
(4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Yes, they'll heap to themselves tons of mis-information from gay-affirming political websites.

EnemyPartyII · Jun 19, 2007

MercyBurst said:
Yes, they'll heap to themselves tons of mis-information from gay-affirming political websites.

Don't suppose you've come up with any non biased, non political, objective, scientifically supported information that suggests anything dissimilar yet have you?

MercyBurst · Jun 19, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
Don't suppose you've come up with any non biased, non political, objective, scientifically supported information that suggests anything dissimilar yet have you?

Well I do have a bible. Its says same sex is judged with the death sentence while hetero sex does not receive the death sentence UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.

Hence, the bible proves THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE between hetero and homo.

Show me in the bible where they are judged the same UNDER the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES. You can't. DAVE is desperately trying, and he can't either.

All the "rep points" in the world can't change the facts.

EnemyPartyII · Jun 19, 2007

MercyBurst said:
Well I do have a bible. Its says same sex is judged with the death sentence while hetero sex does not receive the death sentence UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.

Hence, the bible proves THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE between hetero and homo.

Show me in the bible where they are judged the same UNDER the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES. You can't. DAVE is desperately trying, and he can't either.

All the "rep points" in the world can't change the facts.

And, with the sound of a thousand red herring altering their trajectory by 90 degrees as they fly in from Left Field... Mercyburst shunts us off down a totally seperate tangent to the question asked...

MercyBurst · Jun 19, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
And, with the sound of a thousand red herring altering their trajectory by 90 degrees as they fly in from Left Field... Mercyburst shunts us off down a totally seperate tangent to the question asked...

You asked for science and I gave you bible, which you can not debate.

EnemyPartyII · Jun 19, 2007

MercyBurst said:
You asked for science and I gave you bible, which you can not debate.

And, therin, lies the crux of the matter... when asked for objective, fact based reasons... you are incapable of responding... all you have to base your opinions on are your particular interpretation of the Bible.

MercyBurst · Jun 19, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
And, therin, lies the crux of the matter... when asked for objective, fact based reasons... you are incapable of responding... all you have to base your opinions on are your particular interpretation of the Bible.

That's why I asked you to show me where I'm wrong in the bible.

Gay sex gets the death sentence where straight sex doesn't get the death sentence under EXACTLY THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.

Old Testment verse: Lev 20:13
New Testament verse: Rom 1:27&32

Prove otherwise.

EnemyPartyII · Jun 19, 2007

MercyBurst said:
That's why I asked you to show me where I'm wrong in the bible.

Gay sex gets the death sentence where straight sex doesn't get the death sentence under EXACTLY THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.

Old Testment verse: Lev 20:13
New Testament verse: Rom 1:27&32

Prove otherwise.

Um... I'm mopre than happy to accept that you have identified an area of injustice and unbalance in the Bible. Really, thats fine with me.

Um... the greater question... so what? That relates to life in the real world how, exactly?

MercyBurst · Jun 19, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
Um... I'm mopre than happy to accept that you have identified an area of injustice and unbalance in the Bible. Really, thats fine with me.

Rom 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

EP, it sounds like you say the bible is unrighteous.

Um... the greater question... so what? That relates to life in the real world how, exactly?

If the bible doesn't really matter to you, I guess there's nothing else to say.

EnemyPartyII · Jun 19, 2007

MercyBurst said:
So the bible is unjust according to you. Hmm, I've already argued that one to death on the atheist forum. I can't change what they believe, and there's no point in debating it.

Um, no... YOUR the one pointing out Biblical injustice, I'm agreeing with you.

Either way, you still havn't answered my question as to whether or not you've got any scientificially supported, objective evidence regarding homosexuality yet?

MercyBurst · Jun 19, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
Um, no... YOUR the one pointing out Biblical injustice, I'm agreeing with you.

Either way, you still havn't answered my question as to whether or not you've got any scientificially supported, objective evidence regarding homosexuality yet?

There isn't any reputable scientific evidence for either side of the debate. So knock yourself out.

Here is what the humanistic APA says about it:

No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality.

To date, there are no scientifically rigorous outcome studies to determine either the actual efficacy or harm of "reparative" treatments

It doesn't take a PHD for somebody to plead ignorance like they have done.

The bible has the answers anyway.

Oscillation · Jun 19, 2007

Therefore all societies and cultures had words to describe what they saw happening among the animals and among human beings. And this is clearly proven by the irrefutable history of the Jewish scholars and the irrefutable history of the early church.

Only recently has the notion of "sexual oreintation" come about. Only recently have the feelings, emotions and attractions been seperated from the sex act.

I doupt ancient cultures had any idea that whatsoever they called gay sex went far beyond the simple act of sex.

Oscillation · Jun 19, 2007

From the time Moses delivered the law, to the Israelites, ca. 1200 BC, until the present, Jewish scholars interpreted the O.T. scriptures as condemning ALL same gender sex acts; by ALL persons, male and female; at ALL times, in ALL places, and under ALL circumstances, NO exceptions or exclusions. The early church fathers also interpreted the N.T. scriptures as condemning ALL homosexual acts, with NO exceptions.

Do you take your morality from the same people who justified the Inquisition and sought the burn the very scholars you claim to have on your side, at the stake?

Need we get into the more barbaric things early church fathers believed?

Der Alte · Jun 19, 2007

Oscillation said:
[SIZE=-1]Only recently has the notion of "sexual oreintation" come about. Only recently have the feelings, emotions and attractions been seperated from the sex act.

I doupt ancient cultures had any idea that whatsoever they called gay sex went far beyond the simple act of sex.[/SIZE]

From A Jewish rabbi, "The Rabbis were well able to conceive of monogamous and loving relationships between members of the same sex, and I quote in my paper the texts that prove this beyond reasonable question."

And Clement wrote about Lesbian marriage in the 2d century.

"We Can't Legitimate Homosexuality Halakhically" (USCJ Review, Spring 2004): Rabbi Joel Roth

The two verses in the book of (Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) which deal with homosexuality are really quite clear, despite the efforts of some to call their clarity into question. (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 absolutely forbid homosexual intercourse between males. The Rabbis, in the Sifra (Aharei Mot 9:8), also understand the Torah to forbid lesbianism. The Torahs prohibitions, let it be clear, are against actions, like male homosexual intercourse, not against fantasies or attractions.

The Torah and the Rabbis do not distinguish between types of homosexuals in any way... The Rabbis were well able to conceive of monogamous and loving relationships between members of the same sex, and I quote in my paper the texts that prove this beyond reasonable question. But their words cannot possibly be read to imply that such monogamous or loving gay relationships are in a different halakhic [Jewish legal] category than any other relationships between members of the same sex. The prohibition is clear and total.

http://www.uscj.org/POINTRoth6331.html

Naomi Grossman, freelance journalist, states in her April 2001 article in Moment Magazine, "The Gay Orthodox Undergound":

"The Torah strictly forbids homosexual sex, and rabbis have consistently upheld that prohibition through the ages... The prohibition against homosexual sex comes from Leviticus: 'Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence' (18:22). In biblical times, the punishment for violating that code was clear. 'If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death - their bloodguilt is upon them' (Leviticus 20:13). The Talmud extends the prohibition to lesbian sex [Hilchot Issurei Bi'ah 21:8]."

Official Orthodoxy makes no distinction between the sex act, which the Torah flatly prohibits, and homosexuality as a sexual identity. "Homosexuality is not a state of being in traditional Judaism; it's an act," Freundel says. "Desires are not relevant."

http://members.aol.com/gayjews/moment.html

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 [153 - 217 AD]

But life has reached this pitch of licentiousness through the wantonness of wickedness, and lasciviousness is diffused over the cities, having become law. Beside them women stand in the stews, offering their own flesh for hire for lewd pleasure, and boys, taught to deny their sex, act the part of women. Luxury has deranged all things; it has disgraced man. A luxurious niceness seeks everything, attempts everything, forces everything, coerces nature. Men play the part of women, and women that of men, contrary to nature; women are at once wives and husbands: [Lesbian marriage!] no passage is closed against libidinousness; [i.e. every possible body opening is used for lechery/libidinousness.!] and their promiscuous lechery is a public institution, and luxury is domesticated.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.i.html

Der Alte · Jun 19, 2007

Oscillation said:
[SIZE=-1]Do you take your morality from the same people who justified the Inquisition and sought the burn the very scholars you claim to have on your side, at the stake?

Need we get into the more barbaric things early church fathers believed?[/SIZE]

I interpret the scriptures as did the ancient Jewish scholars from the time of Moses, ca, 1200 BC, and the early church the first 300-400 years. The inquisition occurred over 1000 years later, so it is irrelevant.

If you think the early church fathers did anything barbaric, bring it on.

Oscillation · Jun 19, 2007

When you look up the words Christians interpret to mean "homosexual", why does "same sex attraction", or "monogamous homosexual relationship" not show up anywhere on the list, if the Jews had such clear understanding of sexual orientation?

Oscillation · Jun 19, 2007

If you think the early church fathers did anything barbaric, bring it on.

I didn't say did, I said believed.

More PROOF that EX-GAY Minstries DON't WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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