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More PROOF that EX-GAY Minstries DON't WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

eastcoast_bsc

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Thank you! At least somebody is not telling me I am in denial, putting on facade, denying my true self, etc.

Are you saying that you control or repress your feelings for men , or that they just are no longer there? Which was more prevalent for you in the past, noticing a hot guy on the beach or gym, or a woman ? Which is naturally more prevalent now for you, noticing a Buff guy or hot woman ? yes I know your married but I am discussing inclinations not actions.
 
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MercyBurst

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Are you saying that you control or repress your feelings for men , or that they just are no longer there? Which was more prevalent for you in the past, noticing a hot guy on the beach or gym, or a woman ? Which is naturally more prevalent now for you, noticing a Buff guy or hot woman ? yes I know your married but I am discussing inclinations not actions.

Apparantly you do not fully understand how mortification works through the holy spirit. The temptation will never entirely go away:

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I really prefer life over death. How about you?

Temptation does not make something sin. Acting on temptation makes it sin. I guess gays always act on their temptation, hence they do not see this important distinction:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The exit sign is always there so you can walk away from it. The more you walk away, the easier it gets.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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Apparantly you do not fully understand how mortification works through the holy spirit. The temptation will never entirely go away:

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I really prefer life over death. How about you?

Temptation does not make something sin. Acting on temptation makes it sin. I guess gays always act on their temptation, hence they do not see this important distinction:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The exit sign is always there so you can walk away from it. The more you walk away, the easier it gets.

Well the actual reasons for my cross examination was that you and others seem to indicate that reparation therapy works, when you KNOW it does not ! I have nothing against people who are celibate for whatever reason. But I do abor the lies that state sexual preference is not inate and can be changed like it is but a simple preference. I agree you can walk away. But you can run, but you cannot hide. One can live in celibacy and repress ones feelings, but to deny that they exist is denial itself.
 
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DMagoh

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Are you saying that you control or repress your feelings for men , or that they just are no longer there? Which was more prevalent for you in the past, noticing a hot guy on the beach or gym, or a woman ? Which is naturally more prevalent now for you, noticing a Buff guy or hot woman ? yes I know your married but I am discussing inclinations not actions.

What WAS more prevalent for me in the past was the hot guy on the beach or at the gym, definitely. No doubt about it. After years of feeding my lust with pornography and casual sex, the lust and desire was pretty strong. I couldnt go out of town with my job without looking for the nearest adult bookstore or cruising area. I mean I had it bad!

Once I realized how I was allowing this sin to control my life and ruining my relationship with God, I knew I had to stop. At first, I just controlled the feelings, and just quit acting out. That's the first step. Your feelings are just like Pavlov's dog. Since the dogs got fed everytime the bell rang, they would start salivating whenever they heard the bell. But, Pavlov's dog could also unlearn the behavior. When I quit viewing pornography, quit looking at other guys lustfully, and reinforcing the desires by engaging in casual sex, the feelings lessened.

Then, as I starting developing non-sexual male friendships with straight men, I started meeting my real need in a legitimate way. I started feeling accepted and validated by my peers. I no longer "idolized" other men that I thought I was less than. As I developed these healthy relationships with other men, combined with not acting out sexually, the desires faded even further.

I now have a healthy sex life with my wife (3 or 4 times a week). As my sex life with my wife developed, combined with legitimate male friendships, and not acting out, the feelings that once seemed uncontrollable are now just a fleeting thing.

Now the feelings consists of maybe a temptation from time to time (and I dont mean a lot) to look at an unusually handsome or muscular guy at the mall. But even those temptations are getting fewer and farther between.

As I continue on my journey, just like Pavlov's dog, I will totally quit salivating when the bell rings. But the first step, is to quit eating when the bell rings! If you dont ever really try to not eat (have sex with a man) when the bell rings (when you get horny), you will never stop salivating (getting turned on by other men).

Of course it's not going to be as easy as resisting spinach - if homosexual sex was not desirable for you or me, it wouldnt be temptation. All temptations are desirable, but that doesnt make them okay to do. When you look at what the Bible says...

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:27

...dont you really need to try?

I will say this....while it's not the easiest thing I have ever done, it has been the MOST REWARDING thing I have ever done.

Love you brother, thanks for asking the question
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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What WAS more prevalent for me in the past was the hot guy on the beach or at the gym, definitely. No doubt about it. After years of feeding my lust with pornography and casual sex, the lust and desire was pretty strong. I couldnt go out of town with my job without looking for the nearest adult bookstore or cruising area. I mean I had it bad!

Once I realized how I was allowing this sin to control my life and ruining my relationship with God, I knew I had to stop. At first, I just controlled the feelings, and just quit acting out. That's the first step. Your feelings are just like Pavlov's dog. Since the dogs got fed everytime the bell rang, they would start salivating whenever they heard the bell. But, Pavlov's dog could also unlearn the behavior. When I quit viewing pornography, quit looking at other guys lustfully, and reinforcing the desires by engaging in casual sex, the feelings lessened.

Then, as I starting developing non-sexual male friendships with straight men, I started meeting my real need in a legitimate way. I started feeling accepted and validated by my peers. I no longer "idolized" other men that I thought I was less than. As I developed these healthy relationships with other men, combined with not acting out sexually, the desires faded even further.

I now have a healthy sex life with my wife (3 or 4 times a week). As my sex life with my wife developed, combined with legitimate male friendships, and not acting out, the feelings that once seemed uncontrollable are now just a fleeting thing.

Now the feelings consists of maybe a temptation from time to time (and I dont mean a lot) to look at an unusually handsome or muscular guy at the mall. But even those temptations are getting fewer and farther between.

As I continue on my journey, just like Pavlov's dog, I will totally quit salivating when the bell rings. But the first step, is to quit eating when the bell rings! If you dont ever really try to not eat (have sex with a man) when the bell rings (when you get horny), you will never stop salivating (getting turned on by other men).

Of course it's not going to be as easy as resisting spinach - if homosexual sex was not desirable for you or me, it wouldnt be temptation. All temptations are desirable, but that doesnt make them okay to do. When you look at what the Bible says...

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:27

...dont you really need to try?

I will say this....while it's not the easiest thing I have ever done, it has been the MOST REWARDING thing I have ever done.

Love you brother, thanks for asking the question

But does not this reduce a person to a mere dog ? I was never one to advocate a BF Skinner behaviorist approach to therapy. I believe for most, that their sexual/emotional attractions are immutable. There are many who unlike you , have no bisexual componet to their sexual/emotional attractions, and to try and change that person would leave them isolated and in an unhealthy state. I take your word in regards to your change from Bisexual to heterosexual, but for many and probally the majority involved in the exgay movement, life revolves around the latest seminar or most current book involving change, but the reality is that they are still primarily attracted to men. try to imagine if you were not married and your primary attractions were towards men, what would your adult life revolve around/ No family, no intimacy. I believe that this type of existence is indirectly responsible for the Priest molestation issues. here you have adult men, unable to express themselves in an adult manner, they are hiding out in a cloistered life, which results in a perverted feeble attempt at intimacy, by acting out in an irresponsible way. meaning to live a life void of companionship, intimacy, love often results in bad behaviour choices to try and meet legitmate needs.
 
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DMagoh

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But does not this reduce a person to a mere dog ? I was never one to advocate a BF Skinner behaviorist approach to therapy. I believe for most, that their sexual/emotional attractions are immutable. There are many who unlike you , have no bisexual componet to their sexual/emotional attractions, and to try and change that person would leave them isolated and in an unhealthy state. I take your word in regards to your change from Bisexual to heterosexual, but for many and probally the majority involved in the exgay movement, life revolves around the latest seminar or most current book involving change, but the reality is that they are still primarily attracted to men. try to imagine if you were not married and your primary attractions were towards men, what would your adult life revolve around/ No family, no intimacy. I believe that this type of existence is indirectly responsible for the Priest molestation issues. here you have adult men, unable to express themselves in an adult manner, they are hiding out in a cloistered life, which results in a perverted feeble attempt at intimacy, by acting out in an irresponsible way. meaning to live a life void of companionship, intimacy, love often results in bad behaviour choices to try and meet legitmate needs.

I understand your thoughts and feelings. But how do you know you dont have any heterosexual attraction if you dont really ever give it a chance? Most of the homosexual men I know have given it a half-hearted attempt. They dont initially have the feelings they had for men sexually and so they give up.

But the real issue is this - the Bible says it is sin. I know you love God, do your best to obey His commands. You wont regret it.
 
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Der Alte

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Brieuse

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What WAS more prevalent for me in the past was the hot guy on the beach or at the gym, definitely. No doubt about it. After years of feeding my lust with pornography and casual sex, the lust and desire was pretty strong. I couldnt go out of town with my job without looking for the nearest adult bookstore or cruising area. I mean I had it bad!

Once I realized how I was allowing this sin to control my life and ruining my relationship with God, I knew I had to stop. At first, I just controlled the feelings, and just quit acting out. That's the first step. Your feelings are just like Pavlov's dog. Since the dogs got fed everytime the bell rang, they would start salivating whenever they heard the bell. But, Pavlov's dog could also unlearn the behavior. When I quit viewing pornography, quit looking at other guys lustfully, and reinforcing the desires by engaging in casual sex, the feelings lessened.

Then, as I starting developing non-sexual male friendships with straight men, I started meeting my real need in a legitimate way. I started feeling accepted and validated by my peers. I no longer "idolized" other men that I thought I was less than. As I developed these healthy relationships with other men, combined with not acting out sexually, the desires faded even further.

I now have a healthy sex life with my wife (3 or 4 times a week). As my sex life with my wife developed, combined with legitimate male friendships, and not acting out, the feelings that once seemed uncontrollable are now just a fleeting thing.

Now the feelings consists of maybe a temptation from time to time (and I dont mean a lot) to look at an unusually handsome or muscular guy at the mall. But even those temptations are getting fewer and farther between.

As I continue on my journey, just like Pavlov's dog, I will totally quit salivating when the bell rings. But the first step, is to quit eating when the bell rings! If you dont ever really try to not eat (have sex with a man) when the bell rings (when you get horny), you will never stop salivating (getting turned on by other men).

Of course it's not going to be as easy as resisting spinach - if homosexual sex was not desirable for you or me, it wouldnt be temptation. All temptations are desirable, but that doesnt make them okay to do. When you look at what the Bible says...

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:27

...dont you really need to try?

I will say this....while it's not the easiest thing I have ever done, it has been the MOST REWARDING thing I have ever done.

Love you brother, thanks for asking the question
I've got a question!

Before you were "ex-gay", did you have sexual attraction to both men and women? Or was it only men? or primarily men, with a small attraction towards women?
 
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MercyBurst

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Well the actual reasons for my cross examination was that you and others seem to indicate that reparation therapy works, when you KNOW it does not !

Then why not try plain old therapy instead? There are plenty of licensed therapists out there that can help gays that aren't looking for affirmation.


I have nothing against people who are celibate for whatever reason. But I do abor the lies that state sexual preference is not inate and can be changed like it is but a simple preference.

Sin nature is innate. No matter how hard anyone of us prays, we still have it. Flesh and blood CAN NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

I agree you can walk away. But you can run, but you cannot hide. One can live in celibacy and repress ones feelings, but to deny that they exist is denial itself.

Repression is the wrong worng wrong approach. Mortification is the right right right approach.

It is difficult to explain mortification, but it involves the gradual replacement of one system of thought processes with another. The new system becomes natural. The Holy Spirit enables this. If you want to know more about it, contact a clergyman that knows how this works.
 
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UnitedInChrist

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Try telling that to the hundreds of men I have been with. (Not that I'm proud of that fact, but just to let you know the homosexual feelings I had were not just some bi-curious thing.)
I don't know your life, but bi-curious people don't have multiple sex partners? I dont see the logic here. I said a bi-sexaul anyway, and not a bi-curious.. Also, I did NOT say YOU were putting a facade on your life. I don't think it's a stretch to say many gay men do by getting married and carrying out the "image" of being straight. Finally, whatever it is that you could do to pull yourself away from having 'hundreds' of sex partners...than it's good...taking a wife or whatever...for clearly the way you were living was dangerous. Of course, homosexualty wasn't the issue...I think I'd say the issue was "hundreds of men I slept with"...that is a far greater concern than any whether you're str8 or gay.
 
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MercyBurst

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I don't know your life, but bi-curious people don't have multiple sex partners? I dont see the logic here. I said a bi-sexaul anyway, and not a bi-curious.. Also, I did NOT say YOU were putting a facade on your life. I don't think it's a stretch to say many gay men do by getting married and carrying out the "image" of being straight. Finally, whatever it is that you could do to pull yourself away from having 'hundreds' of sex partners...than it's good...taking a wife or whatever...for clearly the way you were living was dangerous. Of course, homosexualty wasn't the issue...I think I'd say the issue was "hundreds of men I slept with"...that is a far greater concern than any whether you're str8 or gay.

This logic reminds of Aesop's fable: the fox and the grapes. If you can't get the grapes then they must be sour.

Now check out the logic: If somebody was gay, but somehow they were able to develop heterosexual potential -- they must have been bisexual to start with. Those good ol' sour grapes made such a delightful excuse. ^_^


moral of the story:

It is easy to despise what you cannot get.

180px-The_Fox_and_the_Grapes_-_Project_Gutenberg_etext_19994.jpg
 
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davedjy

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Then why not try plain old therapy instead? There are plenty of licensed therapists out there that can help gays that aren't looking for affirmation.




Sin nature is innate. No matter how hard anyone of us prays, we still have it. Flesh and blood CAN NOT inherit the kingdom of God.



Repression is the wrong worng wrong approach. Mortification is the right right right approach.

It is difficult to explain mortification, but it involves the gradual replacement of one system of thought processes with another. The new system becomes natural. The Holy Spirit enables this. If you want to know more about it, contact a clergyman that knows how this works.
You have yet to prove that homosexuality is "sin" according to the Bible. The word "homosexual" or one like it, was not used in the original Hebrew and Greek of the Bible, only a false translation in 1 Cor 6:9.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]You have yet to prove that homosexuality is "sin" according to the Bible. The word "homosexual" or one like it, was not used in the original Hebrew and Greek of the Bible, only a false translation in 1 Cor 6:9.[/SIZE]

3000 years +/- of irrefutable Jewish history and 400 years +/- of early church history prove you wrong.

Even your own posts prove you wrong. You claim there are 450 animal species that are born gay, etc. Unless you want to argue that this only begin to happen within the last 100 years or so, then it has been going on since the beginning.

Therefore all societies and cultures had words to describe what they saw happening among the animals and among human beings. And this is clearly proven by the irrefutable history of the Jewish scholars and the irrefutable history of the early church.

Can you just imagine a 1000 years ago someone observing a pair of male (or female) animals from one of those species having same gender sex and saying, "Well here are 2 males (or females), of this animal species, having sex but since our language has no word for 'homosexual' we can't really describe it, until a word gets invented in the 19th century."

Meanwhile IRREFUTABLE evidence that the ancients did have words to describe homosexuality.

From the time Moses delivered the law, to the Israelites, ca. 1200 BC, until the present, Jewish scholars interpreted the O.T. scriptures as condemning ALL same gender sex acts; by ALL persons, male and female; at ALL times, in ALL places, and under ALL circumstances, NO exceptions or exclusions. The early church fathers also interpreted the N.T. scriptures as condemning ALL homosexual acts, with NO exceptions.

The ancient Jewish scholars and the ECF did NOT even mention, and did NOT limit the condemnation of homosexual acts to, “homosexual rape,”“temple prostitution,”“enslaved boy prostitutes,”“effete, jaded Roman nobles,” pagan temples and/or pagan religious activities!

Recent posts: Link to post with irrefutable evidence from Talmud, and other ancient Jewish writings.

Link to post with irrefutable evidence from early church fathers.

This evidence spans approximately 1500 years of church history, from 1200 BC through 300 AD.

And the only thing you can say dave, is "Tired old links."''Tired old links.""Tired old links."
 
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DMagoh

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You have yet to prove that homosexuality is "sin" according to the Bible. The word "homosexual" or one like it, was not used in the original Hebrew and Greek of the Bible, only a false translation in 1 Cor 6:9.


I dont see the word "homosexual" used at all in this verse, so "homosexual" could not have been "mistranslated"...

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:27

All I see is...
  • They abandoned natural relations with women;
  • They are inflamed in lust for other men;
  • They have commited indecent acts with other men; and
  • They will receive the due penalty for their perversion.
How do you mistranslate that?
 
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Brieuse

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I dont see the word "homosexual" used at all in this verse, so "homosexual" could not have been "mistranslated"...

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:27

All I see is...
  • They abandoned natural relations with women;
  • They are inflamed in lust for other men;
  • They have commited indecent acts with other men; and
  • They will receive the due penalty for their perversion.
How do you mistranslate that?
well, firstly I see the word lust and not love.
 
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Brieuse

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3000 years +/- of irrefutable Jewish history and 400 years +/- of early church history prove you wrong.

Even your own posts prove you wrong. You claim there are 450 animal species that are born gay, etc. Unless you want to argue that this only begin to happen within the last 100 years or so, then it has been going on since the beginning.

Therefore all societies and cultures had words to describe what they saw happening among the animals and among human beings. And this is clearly proven by the irrefutable history of the Jewish scholars and the irrefutable history of the early church.

Can you just imagine a 1000 years ago someone observing a pair of male (or female) animals from one of those species having same gender sex and saying, "Well here are 2 males (or females), of this animal species, having sex but since our language has no word for 'homosexual' we can't really describe it, until a word gets invented in the 19th century."

Meanwhile IRREFUTABLE evidence that the ancients did have words to describe homosexuality.

From the time Moses delivered the law, to the Israelites, ca. 1200 BC, until the present, Jewish scholars interpreted the O.T. scriptures as condemning ALL same gender sex acts; by ALL persons, male and female; at ALL times, in ALL places, and under ALL circumstances, NO exceptions or exclusions. The early church fathers also interpreted the N.T. scriptures as condemning ALL homosexual acts, with NO exceptions.

The ancient Jewish scholars and the ECF did NOT even mention, and did NOT limit the condemnation of homosexual acts to, “homosexual rape,”“temple prostitution,”“enslaved boy prostitutes,”“effete, jaded Roman nobles,” pagan temples and/or pagan religious activities!

Recent posts: Link to post with irrefutable evidence from Talmud, and other ancient Jewish writings.

Link to post with irrefutable evidence from early church fathers.

This evidence spans approximately 1500 years of church history, from 1200 BC through 300 AD.

And the only thing you can say dave, is "Tired old links."''Tired old links.""Tired old links."
You have yet to prove that homosexuality is "sin" according to the Bible. The word "homosexual" or one like it, was not used in the original Hebrew and Greek of the Bible, only a false translation in 1 Cor 6:9.

maybe the early Jewish scholars did not mention boy prostitutes, but Clement of Alexandria did!
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]You have yet to prove that homosexuality is "sin" according to the Bible.[/SIZE]

Ignoring evidence, sticking one's head in the mud and endlessly repeating, "You didn't prove it!""You didn't prove it!""You didn't prove it!" does NOT disprove the evidence, which you ignore. Your refusal to see the evidence does not make it go away.

[SIZE=-1]The word "homosexual" or one like it, was not used in the original Hebrew and Greek of the Bible, only a false translation in 1 Cor 6:9.[/SIZE]

You can repeat "false translation" till your keyboard falls apart. Ignoring the evidence I posted does not make me look like a fool.

Both the ancient Jews and the early church had, and used, words for homosexual. I listed them, you haven't even begun to address my posts.
[SIZE=-1]maybe the early Jewish scholars did not mention boy prostitutes, but Clement of Alexandria did! [/SIZE]

Where is the word "prostitute" in Clement? Clement did mention boys but that is not all he mentioned. Two gay websites acknowledge that, citing scripture, Clement condemned HOMOSEXUALITY! You are in a minority, within a minority. The majority of gays don't even agree with your assumptions and presuppositions.
 
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Brieuse

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Ignoring evidence, sticking one's head in the mud and endlessly repeating, "You didn't prove it!""You didn't prove it!""You didn't prove it!" does NOT disprove the evidence, which you ignore. Your refusal to see the evidence does not make it go away.



You can repeat "false translation" till your keyboard falls apart. Ignoring the evidence I posted does not make me look like a fool.

Both the ancient Jews and the early church had, and used, words for homosexual. I listed them, you haven't even begun to address my posts.


Where is the word "prostitute" in Clement? Clement did mention boys but that is not all he mentioned. Two gay websites acknowledge that, citing scripture, Clement condemned HOMOSEXUALITY! You are in a minority, within a minority. The majority of gays don't even agree with your assumptions and presuppositions.
oh please, does the word "homosexual" appear?
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]oh please, does the word "homosexual" appear?[/SIZE]

oh please, neither does the word, "oh" appear. Nor the word, "please." Nor the word, "does." Nor the word, "the." Nor the word, "word." Nor the word, "appear."

The NT was written in Greek, NOT English and there are NO English words in the original. But there were Greek words for what we call homosexuality and Paul used those words. See the study by Dan Wallace a REAL Biblical Greek scholar.
[c]Review of Mel White’s What the Bible Says—and Doesn’t Say—about Homosexuality
By:
Daniel B. Wallace , Th.M., Ph.D.[/c]

Daniel B. Wallace has taught Greek and New Testament courses on a graduate school level since 1979. He has a Ph.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary, and is currently professor of New Testament Studies at his alma mater.

Mel White was a ghostwriter for several Christian leaders, including Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell. After years in ministry, working for the religious right, he came out of the closet. He and his wife divorced, though she is still good friends with him and is supportive of his new ministry.
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Third, he overstates his case in a couple of key areas. His emphasis in this pamphlet is that we need to reexamine the Bible to see what it says. At the beginning of his work, he writes in large, bold print, “LIKE YOU, I TAKE THE BIBLE SERIOUSLY!” Under his first premise, which bemoans biblical ignorance in America, he says, “Only six or seven of the Bible’s one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way” (p. 4). That is misleading on two fronts: (a) there are nowhere near one million verses in the Bible. The exact count is actually just over 31,000! That’s a far cry from one million, and it raises a disturbing issue: If White can be so cavalier, so loose with the data, about the very thing that he says we all need to pay more careful attention to, perhaps he hasn’t done his homework as he said he did. (b) Regardless of how many verses there are in the Bible, one can’t play games with what it addresses on this issue.
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Fourth, his fourth premise is flawed: “The Bible is a book about God—not a book about human sexuality” (p. 8). Actually, the Bible is a book about God’s relation to human beings and his instructions for how we are to relate to each other. The problem with how White has stated this fourth premise is that he seems to want to say that the Bible doesn’t really deal with homosexual behavior as we understand it today. Yet all through his booklet he also argues that the Christian faith is about love for one’s neighbor. You can’t have it both ways. If the Bible is only a book about God, then why even mention how we should relate to each other? And as for sexuality, I think the Bible speaks very much to this issue. It starts in Genesis by laying out a pattern of behavior that God has designed.
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He goes on to dismiss the Bible’s teaching about several things related to marriage and sex. But he’s really doing a Cuisinart reading of these texts. By mixing the Old Testament commands with the New Testament commands, he’s not wrestling with the progress of revelation or the likelihood that we are no longer under the law. Yet all of the passages he discusses here (Deut 22.13-21, 22; Mark 10.1-12; Lev 18.19; Mark 12.18-27; Deut 25.11-12) are speaking about OT law (even the ones in Mark). My concern here is not simply over small quibbles. It’s over the very thing that White says many Christians are doing incorrectly: carefully reading the Bible. On the one hand, we don’t have the right to pick and choose what we want to believe. On the other hand, we need to nuance our faith so that we are in line with progressive revelation, especially the revelation that has come through God’s Son. I take it as axiomatic that Christians are not under the Mosaic Law. The NT gives plenty of evidence to this effect.
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Fifth, the fifth premise also seems a little off: “We miss what these passages say about God when we spend so much time debating what they say about sex” (p. 10). It’s not an either/or: the Bible is about both God and man, about God’s relation to man, and about human beings’ relation to one another. White’s treatment of Genesis 1 is simply unconvincing precisely at the key word “natural.” White argues that some Christians see in Genesis 1 that it is “natural” for a man and woman to have sex and bear children, and thus “some people think this means gay or lesbian couples are ‘unnatural.’” This is the word that Paul camps on in Romans 1 (though it’s not used in Genesis 1) as the basis for his proscription against homosexual behavior.
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Sixth, his treatment of Rom 1.26-27 leaves a lot to be desired. He argues that the only people Paul had in view were temple priests and priestesses. It may be true that they were on his radar, but it’s hardly the whole picture. Further, where does it say that only these folks are in view? That’s an assumption that White brings to the text. Yes, Paul knew of the orgies at the pagan temples, but he also knew of other kinds of perversions. Indeed, drunken orgies in which people experiment with each other’s bodies is almost surely not the focus of this passage. White assumes that it is, but there is no evidence that Paul is restricting his exegesis to just these folks.
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Paul’s indictment against same-sex relations among women first notes that these women exchanged the natural sexual relations for that which is unnatural. The key terms here are in italics. The exchange that these women did was more than a momentary experimentation, which they would revert back from in more sober times. No, it’s the same exact word that is used in v. 25 for people exchanging the truth of God for a lie. That’s not something done on a whim; it’s a lifestyle decision, not one you easily retreat from. And the exchange in v. 25 is most important: if the immediate result of exchanging the truth of God for a lie is all sorts of sexual perversion (including heterosexual perversion), then, by definition, Paul is saying that when someone makes the commitment to a homosexual lifestyle (or to a perverted heterosexual lifestyle), this commitment is against the truth of God.
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How well does the standard pro-gay exegesis in Rom 1.26-27 do in this passage? The standard pro-gay view is to see pederasty here. That also is quite unlikely, but at least it’s more likely than temple priests and priestesses as the only ones in view. It’s unlikely because (a) Paul starts by discussing women having sex with women (v. 26), and that was all but unheard of in the ancient world when it came to pederasty; (b) Paul then speaks of men with men, but says that these men “abandoned the natural sexual relations with the females.” Abandoned is a strong word, suggesting that this was a lifestyle change. But again, this won’t work for pederasty: unmarried nobles would have sex with pre-teen boys, usually slaves, until they got married. Pederasts, thus, abandoned sex with boys for sex with their wives. That’s just the opposite of what Paul is describing. But it seems to be similar to what we see today: men who abandon their wives for their homosexual partners. (c) They burned in their own passions “for one another.” The reciprocal punishment suggests reciprocal responsibility, but this too could not be true of the slave-boys in a forced pederast scenario.
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Others argue that “natural” (vv. 26, 27) mean “natural inclination.” (This is implicitly what White argues for, too.) Thus, if a person has a natural inclination to homosexuality it would be a sin for him to abandon that and go for the unnatural inclination. The only problem with this view is twofold: (a) Paul does not address whether homosexual inclination is even possibly to be considered as a natural inclination; (b) that which is natural is not inclination at all, but what is designed. And this gets back to the Genesis record on which Paul so heavily depends for his argument. God designed men and women to be sexual creatures that would be compatible only with each other—not men with men, not women with women, not humans with animals, etc. “Natural” thus refers to physical design, not psychological inclination.
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But where I think he’s missed the point is that v. 25 explicitly says that people abandoned the truth of God for a lie, and this prompted God to ‘hand them over’ to homosexual acts.
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The fact is that homosexual infidelity is significantly higher than heterosexual infidelity. For example, in a recent issue of The Advocate (a pro-gay magazine), 20 percent of those surveyed had had 51-300 different sex partners in their lifetime, with an additional 8 percent having had more than 300.1 But if I were just to speak anecdotally as Smedes has done on this point, I would say that I have known many homosexuals who simply can’t reign it in. Their addiction to sex is far worse than that of most heterosexuals.
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In sum, Rom 1.26-27 almost surely is speaking generically about homosexual behavior, and is condemning it absolutely. It is not restricted to temple prostitutes, nor pederasts, nor is it implicitly excusing those with a “natural inclination” toward homosexuality. The language is very clear that these specifics are not on the horizon. And the basis for the argument, once again, is Genesis 1. Paul in fact uses the language of Genesis 1 to drive this point home: he doesn’t say ‘men’ and ‘women’ but ‘male’ and ‘female,’ words taken directly out of Gen 1.26.
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Seventh, White’s exegesis of 1 Cor 6.9 and 1 Tim 1.10 is, frankly, a whitewash over the real meaning of the text. He speaks of the ambiguity of malakos and arsenokoites. But he doesn’t mention that the authoritative lexicon of the NT, known as BDAG, does not speak so ambiguously. This lexicon has about a 120-year history, over which time the scholars putting it together have been able to compile plenty of illustrations for the Greek of the NT. To be sure, there are places where the meaning is quite ambiguous. Because of their scholarly reputation, they do not hesitate to mention doubts about the meaning of a word if there are any. What do they say about these words then? For arsenokoites they note that it means “a man who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex.” They add “pederast” as a second meaning, which would depend on the context (viz., if boys were in view rather than adult males). White is correct that this term should not be translated “homosexual” and that there is no ancient Greek word for “homosexual.” But that is a far cry from saying that there was no concept of homosexuality because the Greeks didn’t use just one word for it! That is to make a lexical-conceptual equation that was debunked nearly fifty years ago. To take one example: Eskimos don’t have a single word for snow. Does this mean that they don’t know what snow is? Rather, precisely because they have multiple words for snow indicates that they were well aware of it, even to understanding it in its various states. The arsenokoites was the active partner in male sex. The malakos was the passive partner in such sex acts. BDAG is unequivocal on both of these points. Incidentally, BDAG also notes that
“Paul’s strictures against same-sex activity cannot be satisfactorily explained on the basis of alleged temple prostitution… or limited to contract w. boys for homoerotic service.”​
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Besides—and this is one thing that was never addressed in White’s book: If fornication is sin—that is, sex outside of marriage—wouldn’t that equally apply to heterosexual and homosexual relations? If Paul was not talking about homosexual behavior, shouldn’t he have sanctioned homosexual marriages? That thought never crossed his mind, nor Jesus’, and the silence is almost deafening. Is it really possible that God could have overlooked the needs of millions of homosexuals in the only book that is our final revelation of his will, just so that we could sort out what to do thousands of years later?

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=4494
 
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