More proof Evolution is not true

[Gwendolyn]

Says who? You? If your side of the fence means calling other people names (while claiming to be Christian), I'll stay on my side of the fence.

Look, I have had a few of such comments directed at me (though I know yours wasn't) over the past few days, all when I was staying within the realm of Church teaching. Believing in Theistic Evolution does NOT place science in a pedestal, and it does NOT mean that the person who believes in Theistic evolution is less of a Christian (or less of a "bible-believer") than those who believe in Creationism. When you make disparaging remarks that place yourself above the person you are speaking to, it isn't charitable and it helps no one. It puts others down and doesn't help your cause.

 

[QuantaCura]

Popular theory of our time. What will be the popular theory of the next time?

I am curious, not as a challenge, but as a real question, what do you believe regarding death before the Fall? Many Fathers outright reject any possibility of anything ever having died before the fall, even plants! I mean, big guns like Fr. John Chrysostom, St. basil (if memory serves) and they were very very ardent about this. Were they just wrong (I'm not trying to put you in a corner... they were fallible men).

I haven't seen too much on this directly on animals (just Chrysostom in the no death camp), but I've seen some Fathers who also claimed man was created mortal (Sts. Augustine and Clement of Alexandria) so I assume they would have thought animals were too. As an aside, I don't think that would be right either.

I would look at it like this. All things that are not God are by nature subject to corruption, since only God is incorruptible. Man, however, was given the supernatural gift of immortality--God breathed His life into him. As punishment or consequence for his sin, he was deprived of this gift. I don't see any reason in Scripture that leads me to believe that animals were given this gift at all. Add to that the fact that certain creatures are specifically designed by the Creator to kill and devour other creatures (not to mentioned specialized cells which kill microscopic organisms).

The New Testament doesn't help much as the sin of Adam is only mentioned in reference to human death (it never mentions animals death).

 

[Michie]

Thanks.

I'm totally used to the attitude in this thread (my family is mainly atheist and I've heard all these agruments/name calling before). I'm just surprised to see it in a Christian setting.

Yeah I know. OBOB can be full of suprises. When I first converted I came back here & experienced all the Catholic luv...I about ran screaming out the Church doors. Things can get pretty testy. And this was back in the supposed glory days!

 

[Chrystal-J]

Yeah I know. OBOB can be full of suprises. When I first converted I came back here & experienced all the Catholic luv...I about ran screaming out the Church doors. Things can get pretty testy. And this was back in the supposed glory days!

Yeah...honestly, with the internet having the ability to pull in thousands of people to post, I'm surprised things are as civil as they are most of the time.
Have a nice night Michie!

 

[Michie]

Yeah...honestly, with the internet having the ability to pull in thousands of people to post, I'm surprised things are as civil as they are most of the time.
Have a nice night Michie!

It used to be A Lot worse!

You have a good night too Chrystal.

 

[Chrystal-J]

Look, I have had a few of such comments directed at me (though I know yours wasn't) over the past few days, all when I was staying within the realm of Church teaching. Believing in Theistic Evolution does NOT place science in a pedestal, and it does NOT mean that the person who believes in Theistic evolution is less of a Christian (or less of a "bible-believer") than those who believe in Creationism. When you make disparaging remarks that place yourself above the person you are speaking to, it isn't charitable and it helps no one. It puts others down and doesn't help your cause.

...and that gives you the right to call me names? None of my comments were directed at you or anything you posted (in fact my comment was meant to be a general comment, that's why I quoted someone I agreed with). But, like I said, most of my relatives are atheists, so most of what I've heard here is nothing new to me.

 

[ebia]

(What is this thread about?)

And (in my opinion) whether you believe in the infallable Word of God (bible) or would rather put your belief in the fallable hands of man-made science.

this is name calling thinly disguised because it insinuates that we do not take God's revelation seriously when in fact we take it at least as seriously - we just don't make the same assumptions about the genre and allow it to speak on it's own terms.

Edit to add: I'm not anti-science, I just don't think it's the end-all be-all of everything. There are some things that science will never be able to explain no matter how advanced it becomes.

Science does not attempt to explain everything. Nobody here thinks it does.

 

[Chrystal-J]

this is name calling thinly disguised because it insinuates that we do not take God's revelation seriously when in fact we take it at least as seriously - we just don't make the same assumptions about the genre and allow it to speak on it's own terms.


Science does not attempt to explain everything. Nobody here thinks it does.

I don't insinuate things...if I wanted to say something, I'd say it. If you read anything into it, that's on you. (And it still doesn't excuse the name calling.)

 

[Joshua G.]

I haven't seen too much on this directly on animals (just Chrysostom in the no death camp), but I've seen some Fathers who also claimed man was created mortal (Sts. Augustine and Clement of Alexandria) so I assume they would have thought animals were too. As an aside, I don't think that would be right either.

I would look at it like this. All things that are not God are by nature subject to corruption, since only God is incorruptible. Man, however, was given the supernatural gift of immortality--God breathed His life into him. As punishment or consequence for his sin, he was deprived of this gift. I don't see any reason in Scripture that leads me to believe that animals were given this gift at all. Add to that the fact that certain creatures are specifically designed by the Creator to kill and devour other creatures (not to mentioned specialized cells which kill microscopic organisms).

The New Testament doesn't help much as the sin of Adam is only mentioned in reference to human death (it never mentions animals death).

I respect that. If I can dig up those quotes, I will share them here for what they are worth. I appreaciate your consideration.

 

[Gwendolyn]

...and that gives you the right to call me names? None of my comments were directed at you or anything you posted (in fact my comment was meant to be a general comment, that's why I quoted someone I agreed with). But, like I said, most of my relatives are atheists, so most of what I've heard here is nothing new to me.

I didn't call you names. I said that disparaging remarks sound haughty and self-righteous whenever people say them, and reflect poorly on the person.

I'm getting sick of this place. Everyone loves to hate on me lately.

 

[ebia]

I don't insinuate things...if I wanted to say something, I'd say it. If you read anything into it, that's on you. (And it still doesn't excuse the name calling.)

So you acknowledge that TEs take God's word just as seriously as you?

 

[Joshua G.]

I agree. Regardless of where we stand, if someone says they believe the Bible is inerrant and that they don't believe anyone should pick the parts they wantt o believe from it, we should take them at their word that they are sincere in saying that. That doesn't mean that they are factually right about how they approach the Bible, but it does mean that it is completely possible that they take the Bible just as seriously as the person who takes all things literally. There are so many valid approachs to literature. If I take the creation story allegorically and NOT literally, I may or may not be wrong (I am either correct or incorrect) but my factual wrongness does nto comment on my trust in God or the Bible. It comments on my ability to interpret correctly.

I am just glad I am no longer charged with interpreting the Scriptures on my own since becoming ORthodox. I am sure my friends here who have converted to Catholicism also often feel the same way.

The problem (if we call it that) here is that neither of our Churches say exactly what the view is here and they probably never will precisely because our faith does not hinge on our belief in evolution or a literal creation. And if it did because of personal reasons or our own logical hangups then we need to do what we must to perserve that faith. I have known people who believe in evolution and that has allowed them to remain in the faith. If so, then more power to them. ANd the same goes to Creationists. I just think it is harmful when Creationists suggest that one must be a Creationist in order to be a real Christian. That has caused so many people to leave the faith altogether because they jsut can't deny what they have been convinced to see.

I hoenstly beleive that had I remained Lutheran (where evolution was as big a heresy as Arianism) I would be a closet atheist by now just going through the moves for my family's sake. The Church's permission for me not to have to be a Creationist to love and believe in Christ is what allowed me to remain in the faith honestly. I just had to make sure that I always put my faith in Crhist and not in the religion of modern science.

Josh

Josh

 

[Michie]

I didn't call you names. I said that disparaging remarks sound haughty and self-righteous whenever people say them, and reflect poorly on the person.

I'm getting sick of this place. Everyone loves to hate on me lately.

Not me! I'm a fan.

 

[Joshua G.]

Any mentally sane person gets sick of this place (CF) at SOMETIME.... lol

 

[Michie]

Any mentally sane person gets sick of this place (CF) at SOMETIME.... lol

Definitely!

 

[Aeneas]

 

[Chrystal-J]

So you acknowledge that TEs take God's word just as seriously as you?

I didn't think about anyone on this thread when I wrote what I wrote. I was just stating my opinion. You're the one that made my statement about you.

 

[Chrystal-J]

I didn't call you names. I said that disparaging remarks sound haughty and self-righteous whenever people say them, and reflect poorly on the person.

I'm getting sick of this place. Everyone loves to hate on me lately.

Here's what you said when you quoted my post...

"Besides, it makes you sound really haughty and self-righteous because such a statement insinuates that you, as a "bible-believer", are inherently above those who see a harmony between science and faith."

Sounds like you were talking about me, does it not? Who is the "you" you're talking about then? Who's supposed to be haughty and self-righteous? Some other poster?

 

[Aeneas]

These threads always make me happy about science.

Symphony of Science - The Poetry of Reality (An Anthem for Science) - YouTube

 

[ebia]

I didn't think about anyone on this thread when I wrote what I wrote. I was just stating my opinion. You're the one that made my statement about you.

So do you or not?