More Palestinian houses destroyed by Israel

[Kalevalatar]

Yup well, a few years ago there was no Palestine, so then there was no way for Arabs to come from Palestine. So how do you justify calling them Palestinians?

Because people should be free to define themselves, what they stand for and how they wish to be called, instead of someone from outside slapping a label on them and telling them that they are this or that.

Basic manners 101, no skin off your nose.

If someone tells you she objects your calling her with the "N" word because she finds it offensive, what do you do? Keep calling her with the "N" word or ask her how she wishes to be called then. When she tells you would you be so kind and use the "AA" word instead, what do you? Use the "AA" she prefers or launch into a meaningless rant how she can't possibly be called an "AA" because of this and that and the third reason, all of them dating back to the ugly side of the European colonialims.

To be sure, what skin off my nose it is if these people wish to be called "Palestinians". It's not like I'm losing something Very Important over 12 letters that can be arranged and re-arranged.

Not at all.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians want nothing less then the complete destruction of the Jews, same with the other Arab nations.

Keep lapping up all that Hamas propaganda though, it's mean old Israel that doesn't want peace.

Don't you mean, some Palestinians and some Arabs in other Arab nations? Just like some Israeli Jews are no more interested in making peace with Arabs either:

U.S. envoy cuts short Hebron trip after clash with settlers

The American bodyguards of a Bush administration envoy who was dispatched to the region to monitor the implementation of the road map engaged in a violent confrontation with right-wing Israelis who sought to disturb a visit to Hebron on Friday, Israel Radio reported.

Small minorities on both sides of the conflict are holding the rest hostage.

 

[_Zap_]

Don't you mean, some Palestinians and some Arabs in other Arab nations? Just like some Israeli Jews are no more interested in making peace with Arabs either:

U.S. envoy cuts short Hebron trip after clash with settlers

I'm talking about the Palestinian government who, unlike the Israeli government, has no interest in peace.

 

[ArnautDaniel]

I'm talking about the Palestinian government who, unlike the Israeli government, has no interest in peace.

The Israeli government has demonstrated it is interested in peace only after it has cleared the Palestinians out of the occupied territories and declared them part of Israel.

 

[Kalevalatar]

I'm talking about the Palestinian government who, unlike the Israeli government, has no interest in peace.

Wide sweeps, way too broad brush.

Again, some in the Palestinian government may not have any real interest in peace, whereas others are actively working to achieve a peace:

Abbas to resume Mideast peace talks with Olmert

Whereas not all in the Israeli side are exactly happy about this: Mr. Netanyahu, the hater of peace:

Likud chairman and opposition leader Binyamin (Bibi) Netanyahu said if he's elected prime minister, he won't carry out the Olmert-Abbas peace deal.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Because people should be free to define themselves, what they stand for and how they wish to be called, instead of someone from outside slapping a label on them and telling them that they are this or that.

Basic manners 101, no skin off your nose.

All right then, feel free to call me "Your Majesty". It's what I want to be called.

Back where I am from people are defined by reality and not their wish or whim. I am from Wisconsin I don't call myself a Californian "because that's how I feel". What the Arabs are doing is called propaganda. They have invented a Palestinian national identity where none existed before for the purpose of destroying Israel by displacing it. If we buy into it then we become nothing more than useful idiots, with our benevolent and naive practices being exploited by those with hearts of darkness. If you watch 'Palestinian' media they explicitly state their hope of destroying Israel and then making it so 'all Arabs can travel anywhere'.

If someone tells you she objects your calling her with the "N" word because she finds it offensive, what do you do? Keep calling her with the "N" word or ask her how she wishes to be called then. When she tells you would you be so kind and use the "AA" word instead, what do you? Use the "AA" she prefers or launch into a meaningless rant how she can't possibly be called an "AA" because of this and that and the third reason, all of them dating back to the ugly side of the European colonialims.

To be sure, what skin off my nose it is if these people wish to be called "Palestinians". It's not like I'm losing something Very Important over 12 letters that can be arranged and re-arranged.

This really is a non-sequitur.

Don't you mean, some Palestinians and some Arabs in other Arab nations? Just like some Israeli Jews are no more interested in making peace with Arabs either:

U.S. envoy cuts short Hebron trip after clash with settlers

No. I mean Arabs. The majority of 'Palestinian' Arabs want Israel destroyed. It is written into the charter of the PLO. The minority is so small as to be insignificant.

Small minorities on both sides of the conflict are holding the rest hostage.

Never have I seen such a naive denial of reality.

 

[Kalevalatar]

All right then, feel free to call me "Your Majesty". It's what I want to be called.

Back where I am from people are defined by reality and not their wish or whim. I am from Wisconsin I don't call myself a Californian "because that's how I feel". What the Arabs are doing is called propaganda. They have invented a Palestinian national identity where none existed before for the purpose of destroying Israel by displacing it. If we buy into it then we become nothing more than useful idiots, with our benevolent and naive practices being exploited by those with hearts of darkness. If you watch 'Palestinian' media they explicitly state their hope of destroying Israel and then making it so 'all Arabs can travel anywhere'.

Oh dear. For starters, "nations" and "national identities" are nothing but imagined communities. Benedict Anderson. Nationalism 101. And borders are nothing but arbitrary lines on maps.

It's those heroic myth-stories of "founding fathers and mothers," "first settlers," "thanksgiving days," "great generals" and "great battles" etc. that we tell ourselves. "National identity" is in those stories and does not "exist" elsewhere.

To be sure, no Finnish "national identity" existed until Finns started to imagine it. Kalevala was (and is) part of that. Sibelius and Finlandia, karelianism, Akseli Gallen-Kallela. Look at my avatar. That's Suomi Neito, the national personification of Finland. And it's just a picture.

I'm afraid you are the poor Don Quijote tilting at windmills. The state of Israel uses terms such as "Palestinians," "Palestinian territory," "Palestinian state," "Palestinian resistance," "Palestinian Authority," "Palestinian side" etc., so what can I say other than, get used to it, pal. Palestinians won't go away.

Never have I seen such a naive denial of reality.

Well, you're so young. You haven't seen that much yet. When you reach my age you'll find out there's rarely nothing new under the sun.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Oh dear. For starters, "nations" and "national identities" are nothing but imagined communities. Benedict Anderson. Nationalism 101. And borders are nothing but arbitrary lines on maps.

It's those heroic myth-stories of "founding fathers and mothers," "first settlers," "thanksgiving days," "great generals" and "great battles" etc. that we tell ourselves. "National identity" is in those stories and does not "exist" elsewhere.

To be sure, no Finnish "national identity" existed until Finns started to imagine it. Kalevala was (and is) part of that. Sibelius and Finlandia, karelianism, Akseli Gallen-Kallela. Look at my avatar. That's Suomi Neito, the national personification of Finland. And it's just a picture

I'm afraid you are the poor Don Quijote tilting at windmills. The state of Israel uses terms such as "Palestinians," "Palestinian territory," "Palestinian state," "Palestinian resistance," "Palestinian Authority," "Palestinian side" etc., so what can I say other than, get used to it, pal. Palestinians won't go away.



Well, you're so young. You haven't seen that much yet. When you reach my age you'll find out there's rarely nothing new under the sun.

You are conflating abstract and make believe. Without abstractions the world as we know it would cease to believe. How many things that the Lord gives us are abstractions? Does the fact that a relationship with the Lord is an abstraction devalue it anymore? By your reasoning it would. What is a sacrifice? Can you show me a sacrifice? Well then it must not have any worth or significance right? The principle you are trying to convince me of is heretical. The Lord's sacrifice has value even if a sacrifice is an abstract thing. What about the Word of the Lord? Words are just sounds that we attach 'imaginary meanings' to right? So therefore the Word of the Lord is imaginary and therefore of no significance, right? Again: heretical. What got into your head? This is why American Christians associate socialism with atheism and Satanism: it uses all these memes that are pervasively heretical and destroy the faith. Christians believe these things and then they without knowing become no different from their atheistic socialist brethren. You realize that this principle you use to attack what I am talking about is a deconstructionist tactic used to attack the faith? Kalevalatar, you need to reconsider what this is you are talking about. When you imply that these things are meaningless you further confuse things because if we were to hold as true what you say then the term 'Palestinian' would become meaningless, e.g. "Well 'Palestinian' is just a made up imaginary term that we started imagining and did not exist until it was imagined therefore it holds no weight". Seriously this principle is a straight ticket to insanity: "Well there was no such thing as a wheel until we imagined it I mean we call those things a wheel but there was no term until we invented it so it is meaningless to say that" . Well, maybe we should just grunt and point! Again we could say the same thing about sin. Show me a sin. Can I look at it and say "sin/ not sin" without going into abstraction? Were there sins floating around before we started talking about them? Again, heretical.

 

[Kalevalatar]

You are conflating abstract and make believe. Without abstractions the world as we know it would cease to believe. How many things that the Lord gives us are abstractions? Does the fact that a relationship with the Lord is an abstraction devalue it anymore? By your reasoning it would. What is a sacrifice? Can you show me a sacrifice? Well then it must not have any worth or significance right? The principle you are trying to convince me of is heretical. The Lord's sacrifice has value even if a sacrifice is an abstract thing. What about the Word of the Lord? Words are just sounds that we attach 'imaginary meanings' to right? So therefore the Word of the Lord is imaginary and therefore of no significance, right? Again: heretical. What got into your head? This is why American Christians associate socialism with atheism and Satanism: it uses all these memes that are pervasively heretical and destroy the faith. Christians believe these things and then they without knowing become no different from their atheistic socialist brethren. You realize that this principle you use to attack what I am talking about is a deconstructionist tactic used to attack the faith? Kalevalatar, you need to reconsider what this is you are talking about. When you imply that these things are meaningless you further confuse things because if we were to hold as true what you say then the term 'Palestinian' would become meaningless, e.g. "Well 'Palestinian' is just a made up imaginary term that we started imagining and did not exist until it was imagined therefore it holds no weight". Seriously this principle is a straight ticket to insanity: "Well there was no such thing as a wheel until we imagined it I mean we call those things a wheel but there was no term until we invented it so it is meaningless to say that" . Well, maybe we should just grunt and point! Again we could say the same thing about sin. Show me a sin. Can I look at it and say "sin/ not sin" without going into abstraction? Were there sins floating around before we started talking about them? Again, heretical.

Please go ahead and remind me. What was our Lord Jesus Christ's "national identity"? Where did our Lord Jesus Christ hail from? Whose flag did He follow to battle and give His life for?

 

[marshlewis]

KarateCowboy if I were being tried for murder, I would want you as my prosecution!.

 

[Disippelen]

Well, I agree that Christians should be much more concerned with the fate of the Palestine-Arabs. Although it's fair to also wish the best for Israel and the lives of Jews in the Middle East, we must never forget that there were many Arabs living in Palestine before the Israeli state was established. Palestinian Jews and Arabs have lived together in Palestine for several centuries, and this must be respected.

When it comes to the term "Palestinian" it was originally used for the Jewish population in the area. The Arabs didn't attain that description until during the 20th century. Still, this doesn't devaluate the right of original Palestine-Arabs to live in their native country (modern Israel and Palestinian territories).

As Christians I believe that we're called to bless Israel, but also other peoples, such as the Arabs, of whom some are our Christian family. Hence, we can't accept that Israel treats Palestinian Arabs in a bad way. We must expect them to be treated with justice. At the same time, it's important that Arabs accept the right of Israel to exist in the Middle East. To make the entire Middle East 100% dominated by the Arabs (and Islam) is not fair. The treatment of Jews by the Arabs prior to the creation of Israel was destestable (including massacres, collaboration with the Nazis and mass expelling of Jews).


Disippelen

 

[Kalevalatar]

As Christians I believe that we're called to bless Israel, but also other peoples, such as the Arabs, of whom some are our Christian family.

Disippelen

It would also behove us to mark that Biblical Israel is not the same as the modern state of Israel, which is first and foremost a political entity among other political entities called nations/states. The majority of the world's Jews live elsewhere; there are as many Jews in the United States of America alone as there are in the state of Israel. And a whole quarter (25%) of the state of Israeli's citizens are not even Jews, but Muslims and Christians, while a good portion of the Israeli citizens of Jewish background consider themselves "secular Jews" whatever that means. So when we Christians are called to bless "Israel" what are we talking about here really? My fellow Finnish citizens of Jewish faith or the Muslim citizens of the modern day state of Israel?

The BBC ran a topical, and I must say heartbreaking, feature piece about a Christian ghost village in Israel called Igrit.

Like thousands of others, Igrit's 450 Christian inhabitants were forced out of their homes and their village by Jewish troops in October 1948. They were promised a quick return but the promise was never honoured. Despite several court rulings in the villagers' favour, the Israeli military did not allow these people to return to their homes. Instead, on Christmas Eve in 1951, the Israeli army blew up and destroyed their old stone homes with dynamite and tank fire in an act of seemingly sheer malice. Yet, to this day, these Christians, their children and grandchildren, strong in their faith, return to their old village on the first Saturday of every month to hold a mass at their old St Mary's church, the only structure spared by the Israeli military -- Apparently, the Jewish soldiers did not quite have it in them to blow up an old Christian church.

[But] it is hard for the former residents of Iqrit and their descendants to understand why the authorities block them - full Israeli citizens - from re-establishing their community in the village.

Yes. That's a good question. Why indeed?

 

[MustafaAli]

What do you call a Jew who lives in Canada?
What do you call a Jew who lives in Hungary?
What do you call a Jew who lives in Mongolia?
What do you call a Jew who lives in Israel?

Funny how you can turn things around like that. By your thought, there are no Israelis either. It's just a made-up identity because you know, a Jew is a Jew and an Arab is an Arab.

Oh and by a few years ago, you mean to forget the British Mandate of Palestine around 1918? Also, most states in the Middle East were drawn up by the colonialists. How do you think Iraq came into being with its varied religious and ethnic groups that clearly don't get along with one another?

Let's also note that you're right now denying that the Palestinian people exist. You are relegating them to being a "non-entity" and as such are denying them a basic right to their own identity. These are Arabs who are not part of the "Jewish state" which is enshrined in the Israeli constitution. Israel is similar to the Arab Islamic republics or "republics" if you prefer , just change Arab to Jew and Islamic to Jewish. They are a significant minority in the territory that wants their own state and sense of identity not granted to them by Israel.

Secondly, this is similar to ethnic conflicts around the world. You could say that the Tamils in Sri Lanka have no right to a state because they aren't Sri Lankan Tamils. They are just Tamils and Tamils are from India so therefore, they have no rights and are just foreigners. I mean, you're saying that the Palestinians are just Arabs and Arabs don't belong in Israel. Did you not know that the Arabs were at one point the majority in Israel/Palestine before the creation of Israel? Oh yeah, creation of Israel by mandate. So what is an Israeli then in modern diplomatic language? I mean, it was just created as a national identity now. Fun.

Oh and what is wrong with peace and co-existence? Your war hawking is only adding to the flames between the two.

 

[elhajj33]

Sorry to interrupt your two minutes of hate, but I can't help but point out:
1) If they live in Israel they are probably Israeli's, not Palestinians.

2) It would be nice if I could find real news sources from journalists talking about this, instead of just Amnesty, but I can't.

they're Palestinians, not Israelis. They are culturally distinct.

as for #2 you should look a little more into this. It's not about nice or not nice, it's about territorial acquisition. there are Israelis (and I don't mean just israeli arabs) who oppose this policy.

 

[FrenchAffair]

I am a Palestinian who's home was destroyed, family forced to move... I am not Muslim. Over 1/3rd of Palestinians are Christians... we face the same persecution from the zionists, we are killed just the same, opressed just the same. Israeli soidlers do not come up and ask you if you are Muslim first before beating you and treating you like a dog.

Thousands of Chrsitian holy sites in palestine have been desecrated by Israel.

 

[FrenchAffair]

no, actually replacement theology is a very well-rejected theory by any respectable pastor, scholar, Christian.

Not at all, Jews that exist today worship not God, but the legacy of the Pharisses that rejected and killed Jesus for their own personal benifit, leading millions who were foolish enough to follow them from the grace of God.

I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan -Revelation 2:9

 

[elhajj33]

Over 1/3rd of Palestinians are Christians... we face the same persecution from the zionists, we are killed just the same, opressed just the same.

French, actually, about 2% of Palestinians are Christians (see: http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/sabella.htm)

In some areas this proportion is higher, but overall the percentage is very small.

And as you said, Palestinian believers suffer the same under the occupation as non-believers.


As a side note about .2% of israeli jews are Christians...

 

[elhajj33]

What the Arabs are doing is called propaganda. They have invented a Palestinian national identity where none existed before for the purpose of destroying Israel by displacing it.

I wonder what you would say to Palestinian Christians? Would you tell them they don't exist? How would it make you feel if someone did the same to you?

I encourage to go and meet with Palestinian believers and hear them recount their lives to you. I lead a group to Bethlehem every year and challenge you to come with me.

Also, you might want to read the first two chapters of Shlomo Ben Ami's book "Scars of War, Wounds of Peace" for a good understanding of the roots of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the development of the Israeli and Palestinian national identities.

Ben Ami was Israel's security and foreign minister under Barak's government. I think you would find his perspective as an Israeli informative.

In the final analysis, Palestinians have a distinct cultural and national identity. Please get to know them before dismissing them...

 

[budda10000]

What do you call a Jew who lives in Canada? a jew?
What do you call a Jew who lives in Hungary? a jew?
What do you call a Jew who lives in Mongolia? a jew?
What do you call a Jew who lives in Israel? a Zionist? They certainly do not act like any Jews I know.
Ok so maybe I am a little biased becuase a decent portion of my friends are middle eastern and i never watch American news channels but I find Israeli policy's towards Palestine to be repugnant. I mean sure they do kill Israeli's but what would you do if your precious U.S. were over-run by a foreign entity and then you were subjugated to no end? I for one would be firing those rockets (all be it more at military than civilian targets).... The U.S. need to either end its alliance with Israel or put some serious political pressure on them. I for one cannot think of a single benefit being allied with Israel has brought us. They do not help us in any of our conflicts, they do not earn us any profit, they play a major hand in U.S. policy, and they do nothing but make us new enemies from people who were formally neutral or allies. Sounds like a worthless alliance to me. I am tired of AIPAC having so much influence in our republic.

 

[FrenchAffair]

Christians just don't want to know anything beyond what they think the Bible tells them to do. Its sad.

Christian Palestinians face the same persecution as Muslim, Atheist...ect Palestinians. There were over one million Christian Palestinians in the region in 1900. Today there are less than 300,000 due to Israeli persecution that still live in their native land.

 

[FrenchAffair]

Sorry to interrupt your two minutes of hate, but I can't help but point out:
1) If they live in Israel they are probably Israeli's, not Palestinians.

Over 1/3rd of Israeli population is Palestinians... 6,000,000 Palestinians on top of that live under Israeli occupation with out any democratic or human rights.