More on why I reject evolution

[The Barbarian]

The presence of fossils is readily explained by the concept of a pre-Adamic creation.

Yes, the Earth was very old by the time God created humans.

I am convinced that Noah's flood was the second world wide flood, not the first.

Since the Bible doesn't say any flood was world-wide that's not really an issue.

So no, I don't think that the earth is 6,000 years old. However, the 4.5 billion year age is implausible.

There's a lot of evidence confirming that age. Would you like to talk about it?

I don't have every answer to every question tossed up by evolutionist.

YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise agrees. He openly admits that there presently is no creationist model that adequately explains the evidence. He believes that someday there will be.

Elon Musk works on the concept of first principles. In the realm of evolution, so do I. Life cannot arise spontaneously.

Doesn't matter to evolutionary theory, which makes no claims about how life began. Darwin supposed that God did it,but it really doesn't matter as far as evolution goes.

If life does not arise in that manner, then evolution as a concept is stillborn.

No, that's wrong. Evolutionary theory assumes life began somehow, and describes how it changes over time. So exactly how it began is not an issue. However, scientists working on that subject are coming to believe that the Earth produced living things, which is what God said.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Yes, the Earth was very old by the time God created humans.



Since the Bible doesn't say any flood was world-wide that's not really an issue.

If the flood was not world wide then not all life would have perished. I think it's clear that the Bible states that the flood took all lives.

There's a lot of evidence confirming that age. Would you like to talk about it?

I don't come up with my conclusions without at least some reasoning:
1. Oil and gas under pressure. It surely should have escaped if the earth is as old as claimed,
2. The moon is slowly moving away from the earth. It should be loose in space, not orbiting by now.
3. A great deal of debate and scepticism about dating methods
4. No one knows if the speed of light has been constant throughout time
5. The universe is expanding much faster than it should be
6. There is vastly less matter than suggested by a 13 billion year old universe
7. Dark matter/energy has not been found. The likely reason is that it does not exist.
8. Matter and anti matter were supposedly produced by the "Big Bang". They should have neutralised each other to produce the big non event.

OK, not all points directly relate to the earth's age. I hope that you can see that I'm not being arbitrary in my conclusions.

YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise agrees. He openly admits that there presently is no creationist model that adequately explains the evidence. He believes that someday there will be.



Doesn't matter to evolutionary theory, which makes no claims about how life began. Darwin supposed that God did it,but it really doesn't matter as far as evolution goes.

I beg to differ. The majority of evolutionists I've come across are atheists. I don't know how Christians can rationalise evolution - but that's another issue.


No, that's wrong. Evolutionary theory assumes life began somehow, and describes how it changes over time. So exactly how it began is not an issue. However, scientists working on that subject are coming to believe that the Earth produced living things, which is what God said.

I have to disagree on that point also. The Bible uses words such as "created", "made" and "formed". There is no implication that God sprinkled Evo dust on the water and wandered off to get on with something else.

Just as a footnote, I have a great deal on my mind at present. A dear friend is seriously ill and I find it hard to concentrate for very long. Thank you for your reasoned responses. I'm more used to vitriol and abuse from the pro evolution camp.

 

[Andrewn]

The presence of fossils is readily explained by the concept of a pre-Adamic creation. I am convinced that Noah's flood was the second world wide flood, not the first.

This is interesting. Do you believe the human beings created in Gen 1 were all killed in a 1st flood? Were they Homo sapiens or other Homo species?

 

[The Barbarian]

If the flood was not world wide then not all life would have perished. I think it's clear that the Bible states that the flood took all lives.

It says all life on the "land" that was flooded. Not all life in the world.

1. Oil and gas under pressure. It surely should have escaped if the earth is as old as claimed,

Most of it did. Only where it happened to be under impermiable formations like salt domes, did it stay underground for more than a few million years. And yes, there are places where it came to the surface and pooled.

The moon is slowly moving away from the earth. It should be loose in space, not orbiting by now.

The moon is not as old as the Earth. Evidence shows it was formed by a collision of the Earth with a Mars-sized object. And fossilized tidal rhythmites show how the distance changed over time. Pretty much what physics predicts. You see, it's moving outward because it gains energy from the Earth (thus very slightly slowing the Earth) by tidal forces on coastlines. The rate has changed over the ages, because of differences in the amount of coastline. But the math shows that the rate is consistent with fossil evidence.

No one knows if the speed of light has been constant throughout time

The speed of light is a factor in radioactive decay. It it had been significantly greater in the Earth's time, the increased amount of ionizing radiation would have fried all living things, and left evidence in the rocks. So that doesn't work.

There is vastly less matter than suggested by a 13 billion year old universe
7. Dark matter/energy has not been found. The likely reason is that it does not exist.
8. Matter and anti matter were supposedly produced by the "Big Bang". They should have neutralised each other to produce the big non event.

None of these have anything to do with the age of the Earth.

No, that's wrong. Evolutionary theory assumes life began somehow, and describes how it changes over time. So exactly how it began is not an issue. However, scientists working on that subject are coming to believe that the Earth produced living things, which is what God said.

I have to disagree on that point also.

God says:
Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

There is no implication that God sprinkled Evo dust on the water and wandered off to get on with something else.

God used nature He had already created to do much of creation. He's still completely involved with every particle of this universe. He doesn't have to tinker with it to make it work, though. Again, the creation of life has nothing to do with evolutionary theory. Even if God had just magically poofed the first living things into being, it wouldn't matter to evolutionary theory.

I'm sorry to hear of your friend's illness. He will be in my prayers. I think the anger we sometimes see in these discussions is unfortunate. YE creationists are no less Christians than any other Christian, and we should always remember that this issue is not one that will affect our salvation.

If you want to continue this later, I'm fine with that. Take care.

 

[Aussie Pete]

This is interesting. Do you believe the human beings created in Gen 1 were all killed in a 1st flood? Were they Homo sapiens or other Homo species?

That's a very good question, but I don't know and I don't know how we could find out. It may explain some of the supposed precursors of modern man. The thing about fossils is that they are extremely difficult to form. Anything that dies on the surface generally gets eaten. It takes a certain set of circumstances for fossils to form. Like a catastrophic flood, for example.

It's fun to speculate and wonder about the past. Some people get unnecessarily hung up on Genesis. I got saved quite a while before I got around to reading Genesis. By then I'd decided that I would believe God and the questions would eventually be answered. I'm still waiting for some answers!

 

[Andrewn]

It may explain some of the supposed precursors of modern man.

It's fun to speculate and wonder about the past. Some people get unnecessarily hung up on Genesis.

Yes, it's fun to speculate without being dogmatic. I know that I no longer believe in YEC. But, as a Christian, I definitely believe God is the Creator. As far as there being other human beings beside the sons of Adam, this is strongly implied in the story of Cain:

Gen 4:13 But Cain answered the Lord, “My punishment is too great to bear! 14 Since you are banishing me today from the face of the earth, and I must hide from your presence and become a restless wanderer on the earth, whoever finds me will kill me.”

15 Then the Lord replied to him, “In that case, whoever kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” And he placed a mark on Cain so that whoever found him would not kill him. 16 Then Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

17 Cain was intimate with his wife, and she conceived and gave birth to Enoch. Then Cain became the builder of a city, and he named the city Enoch after his son.

The narrative goes on to tell about Cain's descendants who took wives, presumably from the local population, killed men, presumably from the local population, and made technological inventions, presumably for the benefit of other human beings.

 

[The Barbarian]

It takes a certain set of circumstances for fossils to form. Like a catastrophic flood, for example.

Or slow sedimentation. Or dying in a river and being washed down to a delta. Or being caught in plant sap. Or dying in a burrow that fills in. Or slow burial by rising water (trees)

And you're quite right that you can be saved without knowing Genesis. You merely need to know Jesus.

 

[East of Eden]

Since the subject of evolution and my response to it generates so many responses to my posts, I find it hard to keep track and even harder to be bothered covering the same old ground. So for those who are interested, I post an article of 75 points that cover most of my objections to evolution. I did not write it. The fact that David R Pogge (aka Do-While Jones) is not a biologist is entirely irrelevant. Evolution is not rocket surgery. The concept is simple enough. What is incredibly complex is the mental gymnastics required to believe in evolution.

So, you can find the link to the article here: Seventy-five Theses

If the link does not work, I've uploaded a .pdf copy as well.

Excellent link. Evolution also violates the law of cause and effect, the effect cannot be greater than the cause. To believe in naturalistic evolution one must believe nothing x nobody = everything.

 

[The Barbarian]

Excellent link. Evolution also violates the law of cause and effect, the effect cannot be greater than the cause.

That would rule out hurricanes, landslides, and pandemics. BTW, your "law" also rules out God.

To believe in naturalistic evolution one must believe nothing x nobody = everything.

No. You've confused "why is there something, instead of nothing" with evolutionary theory. You might was well condemn physics, because it doesn't explain why there is matter and energy.

Perhaps you should back up and first find out what the claims of evolutionary theory are, and then see how well they are supported. Worth a try?

 

[East of Eden]

That would rule out hurricanes, landslides, and pandemics.

Those are simply random mayhem, and not remotely comparable to the 'effect' of human beings made in God's image, with the ability to love, make moral judgements, create, appreciate music, reason, etc.

BTW, your "law" also rules out God.

Where did I say God had a cause? You don't need an explanation for an explanation, i.e. if we came upon a hill with tools and arrowheads buried in it, it would be reasonable to assume men made those implements, without knowing anything about who they were and where they came from.

No. You've confused "why is there something, instead of nothing" with evolutionary theory. You might was well condemn physics, because it doesn't explain why there is matter and energy.

Perhaps you should back up and first find out what the claims of evolutionary theory are, and then see how well they are supported. Worth a try?

Been there, done that, thanks anyway.

 

[The Barbarian]

Those are simply random mayhem, and not remotely comparable to the 'effect' of human beings made in God's image, with the ability to love, make moral judgements, create, appreciate music, reason, etc.

Evolution is not about souls. Human souls are given directly by God, not by nature. Our bodies are natural objects, but our souls are not. Just pointing out that the "law of cause and effect" rules out God. Which suggests something is wrong with it.

Where did I say God had a cause?

So not everything has a cause, much less a cause greater than itself. O.K.

You've confused "why is there something, instead of nothing" with evolutionary theory. You might was well condemn physics, because it doesn't explain why there is matter and energy.

Perhaps you should back up and first find out what the claims of evolutionary theory are, and then see how well they are supported. Worth a try?

Been there, done that, thanks anyway.

That's pretty much what's holding you back understanding how He does things.

 

[East of Eden]

Evolution is not about souls. Human souls are given directly by God, not by nature. Our bodies are natural objects, but our souls are not.

Did our souls take billions of years to evolve? I believe God created the heavens and the earth, and I'm not particularly interested in the details. When it comes to evolution, there are a whole lot of problems with that theory, as even some non-Christian scientists admit.

When God creates the new heavens and new earth, will it take Him billions of years to do it?

Just pointing out that the "law of cause and effect" rules out God.

No it doesn't, as the Kalam Cosmological Argument states, whatever begins to exist had a cause, God has always existed, the universe and humans have not.

Which suggests something is wrong with it.

Faulty premise.

So not everything has a cause, much less a cause greater than itself. O.K.

Correct.

Do you believe in a literal Adam? What role do you think God played in creation? Just would like to know where you're coming from.

 

[The Barbarian]

Evolution is not about souls. Human souls are given directly by God, not by nature. Our bodies are natural objects, but our souls are not.

Did our souls take billions of years to evolve?

They are given immediately by God. Because they are not natural, like our bodies, they are not subject to biological evolution.

I believe God created the heavens and the earth, and I'm not particularly interested in the details.

A wise position, I think. How He did it, is not an issue. That He did it, is given in His word to us. It doesn't matter that He doesn't give us the details. And if He used a long time, that is of no importance to Him at all.

When it comes to evolution, there are a whole lot of problems with that theory, as even some non-Christian scientists admit.

Since it's directly observed, no scientist of any quality will deny the fact. However, there are still many problems in evolutionary theory, even if the basics are firmly documented. For example there is the question of horizontal gene transfer, and how much neutral evolution is involved in phylogenies. It's like gravity; we know the basics, but there are still a lot of questions to be determined. All useful sciences are like that.

When God creates the new heavens and new earth, will it take Him billions of years to do it?

Depends on what He chooses. Who am I to second-guess Him?

Just pointing out that the "law of cause and effect" rules out God.

No it doesn't

It does, unless you think God is not a cause of anything. By definition, your description of the law rules out the existence of anything that did not have a greater cause.

Do you believe in a literal Adam?

Some Christians don't, but I believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans to be living souls. Almost all Catholic Christians do. How about you?

What role do you think God played in creation?

For a Christian, God is the Creator. Do you accept that? Just would like to know where you're coming from.

 

[Andrewn]

Some Christians don't, but I believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans to be living souls.

How do you explain what I quoted in post #106? And the fact that God created human beings according to His image and likeness in Gen 1 before creating Adam in Gen 2? And that Adam was created in Gen 2 before the plants and animals?

 

[The Barbarian]

How do you explain what I quoted in post #106? And the fact that God created human beings according to His image and likeness in Gen 1 before creating Adam in Gen 2? And that Adam was created in Gen 2 before the plants and animals?

First, we don't know at what point two humans were given immortal souls and became thereby in His image and likeness (which is in our minds and souls, not our physical appearance, God being a spirit with no physical body). Second, it's very plain in Genesis that much of it is figurative, not a literal history.

 

[East of Eden]

Evolution is not about souls. Human souls are given directly by God, not by nature. Our bodies are natural objects, but our souls are not.



They are given immediately by God. Because they are not natural, like our bodies, they are not subject to biological evolution.

So why can't our bodies be given immediately by God? When Jesus got His resurrection body it was immediate. Neither body nor soul are 'natural', short of divine intervention.

Since it's directly observed,

Nobody observed the Big Bang, or the first non-life becoming life. This is the problem with evolution. It does not fall into "operational science". There is nothing to be observed, tested, or measured in the laboratory that will validate this theory. It is pure speculation, not science. All the fossil evidence for human evolution between 10-5 million years ago, several thousand generations of living creatures, can be fitted into a small box, according to Henry Gee, senior science writer for Nature magazine.

Speaking of the evolutionary requirement of intermediate forms between species, the late Dr. Colin Patterson at the British Museum said, "I will lay it on the line - there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument."

no scientist of any quality will deny the fact. However, there are still many problems in evolutionary theory, even if the basics are firmly documented. For example there is the question of horizontal gene transfer, and how much neutral evolution is involved in phylogenies. It's like gravity; we know the basics, but there are still a lot of questions to be determined. All useful sciences are like that.

Just pointing out that the "law of cause and effect" rules out God.

No it doesn't, God had no beginning.

Some Christians don't, but I believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans to be living souls. Almost all Catholic Christians do. How about you?

I do also, and since death first came about with their sin, evolution is problematic.

For a Christian, God is the Creator. Do you accept that? Just would like to know where you're coming from.

Of course I accept that.

 

[Andrewn]

First, we don't know at what point two humans were given immortal souls and became thereby in His image and likeness

Probably 50,000 years ago with the acquisition of language and behavioral modernity.

 

[The Barbarian]

Probably 50,000 years ago with the acquisition of language and behavioral modernity.

Possibly so. I have no idea how we could know for sure. I don't even see why it might matter.

 

[The Barbarian]

So why can't our bodies be given immediately by God?

Could have been. For some reason, He chose to do that naturally. I can only think He got it right.

When Jesus got His resurrection body it was immediate.

I notice that it's the same body in which He was crucified, which He got naturally.

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said: Peace be to you. [27] Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing.

Neither body nor soul are 'natural', short of divine intervention.

As you know, our bodies are made naturally, by natural processes. That's how God does most things in this world.

 

[SilverBear]

No it doesn't, as the Kalam Cosmological Argument states, whatever begins to exist had a cause, God has always existed, the universe and humans have not.

Quantum physics rips a big hole in Kalam subatomic particles pop into existence all the time with out any cause