More Obamacare Implosion

dogs4thewin

dog lover
Christian Forums Staff
Hands-on Trainee
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2012
30,389
5,619
32
Georgia U.S. State
✟897,697.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Why should the disabled have that right?
If you are disabled ( particularly if you BECAME disabled on the job) you worked and maybe have bills as a DIRECT result of being disabled.
 
Upvote 0

dogs4thewin

dog lover
Christian Forums Staff
Hands-on Trainee
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2012
30,389
5,619
32
Georgia U.S. State
✟897,697.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Yes, I was addressing you. Actually what you said was:



Nothing there about "certain other conditions" or about being elderly or serving in the armed forces or being disabled.
Look, you are responsible for yourself the government is NOT your parent, HOWEVER when one commits an act any act that society as a whole has deemed to be so unacceptable that you should be removed from society, with that decision they become responsible for you since they said that you cannot live out in society. Until then however manage your own money and healthcare and be responsible for your own decisions good or bad.
 
Upvote 0

Markus6

Veteran
Jul 19, 2006
4,039
347
39
Houston
✟22,034.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If health care is a right, that creates an obligation on the part of people to provide it.
I think that is a natural, moral obligation of those with medical training. If someone is injured in public or collapses, and you have the medical skills to help then you should. Without checking to see who they are or how much money is in their account.

That's the moral basis. Everything else is just formalization and expansion of that principle.
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I think that is a natural, moral obligation of those with medical training. If someone is injured in public or collapses, and you have the medical skills to help then you should. Without checking to see who they are or how much money is in their account.

That's the moral basis. Everything else is just formalization and expansion of that principle.

If that is the case (someone can help you in public) they need to change the litigation culture in the United States to better protect healthcare professionals. Obviously, if someone collapses in public, it is not the best environment for even a healthcare professional to assess a person or treat them. If they try to and they make a wrong decision, they can and will be sued.
 
Upvote 0

Markus6

Veteran
Jul 19, 2006
4,039
347
39
Houston
✟22,034.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If that is the case (someone can help you in public) they need to change the litigation culture in the United States to better protect healthcare professionals. Obviously, if someone collapses in public, it is not the best environment for even a healthcare professional to assess a person or treat them. If they try to and they make a wrong decision, they can and will be sued.
Formalization and expansion... if you know how to give initial care (stopping blood, putting someone in the right position, CPR) then you should. You should ensure someone calls 911. The responders are obligated to come, administer on scene care and transport to the correct place. The people at the hospital are obligated to immediately begin care. All of that occurs without condition on who the person is or how much money they have and no one, morally speaking, has justification for not providing a service they are trained to provide.
 
Upvote 0

dogs4thewin

dog lover
Christian Forums Staff
Hands-on Trainee
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2012
30,389
5,619
32
Georgia U.S. State
✟897,697.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Formalization and expansion... if you know how to give initial care (stopping blood, putting someone in the right position, CPR) then you should. You should ensure someone calls 911. The responders are obligated to come, administer on scene care and transport to the correct place. The people at the hospital are obligated to immediately begin care. All of that occurs without condition on who the person is or how much money they have and no one, morally speaking, has justification for not providing a service they are trained to provide.
Should I provide care yes. Would I personally provide care or call for help? Yes Should I be mandated to do so by the government no As for the hospitals they are ONLY required to get you stable zero else and it should be that way.
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Formalization and expansion... if you know how to give initial care (stopping blood, putting someone in the right position, CPR) then you should. You should ensure someone calls 911. The responders are obligated to come, administer on scene care and transport to the correct place. The people at the hospital are obligated to immediately begin care. All of that occurs without condition on who the person is or how much money they have and no one, morally speaking, has justification for not providing a service they are trained to provide.

I realize all of that.

First responders and the people at the hospital have liability insurance and it is part of their job (and they have the equipment to properly diagnose and treat) in their environments.

I am talking about a different situation, when a doctor is walking across the street and someone collapses. They are in a poor position to treat and much more prone to liability.
 
Upvote 0

Illuminaughty

Drift and Doubt
May 18, 2012
4,617
133
✟20,609.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Part of your ID number identifies which policy you have. Even the receptionist knows where you got your insurance
That sounds reasonable. For the sake of argument lets say you are right and this ID number doesn't just show the plan but also shows the way you purchased it. This could make information available that a doctor could use if he or she had the motivation to discriminate based on it. Now on to the second question I posed in the same post. Why would the doctors care what method you used to purchase you plan?Wouldn't it matter more what you plan was as opposed to how you went about purchasing it? Say one customer bought plan "x" from Bluecross through the exchange and another person bought the same plan "x" from Bluecross via some other route. What would the doctor gain by refusing the first person and accepting the second person? It's the quality of plan that would matter not the method one used to purchase it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Illuminaughty

Drift and Doubt
May 18, 2012
4,617
133
✟20,609.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
I guess in OCDS* world you are going to call and ask a doctor "Do you accept patients with Blue Cross plan x" and they are no longer going to say "yes" or "no" based on the plan itself like they used to. Instead they going to make sure you didn't purchase it using the method they are discriminating against for no apparent reason first. They don't like getting the exact same payments, etc... from a health insurance program if was it purchased via the exchange. Their money is no longer any good.

**OCDS =ObamaCare Derangement Syndrome
 
Upvote 0
H

HorsieJuice

Guest
Your church is certainly free to believe what it wants, but the US Constitution is a legal document governing what is allowed or not. This country nor its citizens is in any way obligated to follow the tennets of any one religious belief....that would be a theocracy, which is not permissible under our Constitution. I'm sure you'd love it if Fundamentalists controlled what was legal or not!

You should post this in one of the gay marriage threads.
 
Upvote 0

CarlosTomy

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2013
473
20
✟725.00
Faith
Atheist
IF she saught treatment.

Most people will. I mean what is the value of a society that has all this great medical skill if some people don't have the option of using it?

This isn't the kind of society I want to support. I want to support a society that takes care of all its people.

I'm weird like that. If I'm going to pay taxes I'd rather it go to helping my fellow Americans than supporting a military larger than the next 16 largest militaries combined.

Are we to be defined as a people by the ability we have to KILL or to HEAL?
 
Upvote 0

dogs4thewin

dog lover
Christian Forums Staff
Hands-on Trainee
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2012
30,389
5,619
32
Georgia U.S. State
✟897,697.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Most people will. I mean what is the value of a society that has all this great medical skill if some people don't have the option of using it?

This isn't the kind of society I want to support. I want to support a society that takes care of all its people.

I'm weird like that. If I'm going to pay taxes I'd rather it go to helping my fellow Americans than supporting a military larger than the next 16 largest militaries combined.

Are we to be defined as a people by the ability we have to KILL or to HEAL?
I didn't say most people would not seek treat; I said that it is an OPTION not to.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Joykins

free Crazy Liz!
Jul 14, 2005
15,710
1,181
53
Down in Mary's Land
✟29,390.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
So Methodists are liberal?

Not all Methodists are liberal but social justice is a big part of our history and what we're about. Do you accept the freedom and power God gives you to resist evil, injustice, and oppression in whatever forms they present themselves? is part of our Baptismal vows.
 
Upvote 0

CarlosTomy

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2013
473
20
✟725.00
Faith
Atheist
I didn't say most people would not seek treat; I said that it is an OPTION not to.

It is an option...but that isn't why 40 million Americans go without healthcare. I'm willing to bet less than 0.01% of them think "Gee it's great I don't have healthcare coverage because there's no way I'd USE healthcare if I had access to it."

There's a difference between a choice and being forced to do something.

But I do understand that some people would rather define our country and our civilization by how many bombs we can drop and how many people we can kill than by how many people we can heal. So if we are going to pay taxes it should go to the things we love the most: lead and explosives.

We have set our priorities.

You know I heard once about some fool who said "For all they who that take the sword shall perish by the sword."
 
Upvote 0

Veritas

1 Lord, 1 Faith, 1 Baptism
Aug 7, 2003
17,038
2,806
Pacific NW USA
Visit site
✟109,662.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Not nearly as liberal as we used to be. Conservatives (mainly from the southeastern US) have been slowly driving my church to the Right for a couple of decades now. It's tragic.

:D
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jgarden

Senior Veteran
Jan 1, 2004
10,695
3,181
✟106,405.00
Faith
Methodist
In his analysis piece in the Times headlined, “Living the American Dream (in Canada),” Timothy Smeeding, professor of public affairs and economics at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, cites the differences in political priorities in the U.S. and Canada, noting .....

It’s often said that the poor will always be with us.

That may be true, but, this latest study shows, it’s less likely in Canada.

Bottom line: Any country that diminishes hope in its lower income groups does so at its own peril.

Canada has long known this simple truth. The U.S. refuses to.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/living-the-american-dream-in-canada-2012-01-19
While American conservatives criticize Obamacare, they fail to provide any alternatives and hope for the millions of citizens who currently are either unable to afford private healthcare insurance, or have pre-existing conditions that make them uninsurable.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0