More Important, Benevolence or Belief?

[dlamberth]

T
The whole point of the Gospel is salvation.

I'd say that the whole point of Jesus Christ is to make God a reality in ones life. From that trajectory, I'd say that Benevolence is more important.

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[smaneck]

The whole point of the Gospel is salvation.

Salvation from what, Albion?

And please evangelicals don't all jump up and say "hell."

I want to know what Albion thinks. He doesn't strike me as a fire insurance salesman.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I've gone through it verse by verse and failed to find the one that indicates this.

Jesus was bound to the old covenant as long as the Levitical priesthood was in force and the temple stood. His death signaled the imminent end of this. Until that time he obeyed the Law and adjured his disciples to do the same.

This verse gives a hint concerning what Jesus was about, that is obeying the law but knowing that it will shortly pass away.

Matthew 23:23

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

 

[Noxot]

By that designation, religion puts people into a sort of spiritual hell, forcing themselves to be good for a perceived reward rather than what comes naturally to them. Interesting.

that is true but I would say the root of the problem is the humans brain/soul and lack of ability to understand spiritual reality. whatever foundation someone has will be what tells them what something means. that is why Jesus says "you must be born from above", because from the get go many of the religious people of his day had no real spiritual understanding, they just had a bunch of books and traditions that they thought they understood and so never gave God the chance to teach them.

this kind of thing sometimes happens with non-religious people too. people start doing good for things like "acceptance in society", and "because I don't want to go to jail" or "because that is the way things are" or "that is the law"

even "to serve others" is sometimes just another devil disguised as an angel. humility can be good or it can be bad. sometimes rebellion is the right thing to do and if you do not rebel, you don't really want to do good, you just want to look good.

innocence plays a crucial part in all of this.

 

[PsychoSarah]

that is true but I would say the root of the problem is the humans brain/soul and lack of ability to understand spiritual reality. whatever foundation someone has will be what tells them what something means. that is why Jesus says "you must be born from above", because from the get go many of the religious people of his day had no real spiritual understanding, they just had a bunch of books and traditions that they thought they understood and so never gave God the chance to teach them.

this kind of thing sometimes happens with non-religious people too. people start doing good for things like "acceptance in society", and "because I don't want to go to jail" or "because that is the way things are" or "that is the law"

even "to serve others" is sometimes just another devil disguised as an angel. humility can be good or it can be bad. sometimes rebellion is the right thing to do and if you do not rebel, you don't really want to do good, you just want to look good.

innocence plays a crucial part in all of this.

That kind of innocence has no relationship with religion really.

 

[dlamberth]

innocence plays a crucial part in all of this.

So does Heart.

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[Albion]

Salvation from what, Albion?

From being outcast from God because of our sins. The story of the Old Testament is of a favored people who could not live up to God's standards. The story of the New Testament is that God took it upon himself--at substantial cost--to restore us to a right relationship with him, dependent only upon us accepting the offer. When the question is asked, "belief or benevolence?" I assume that it means "within the context of the Christian religion," which what brings most of us to CF in the first place. That being the case, benevolence is good in itself, but it is a consequence of being a person of Faith (i.e. "belief"). That's why I voted for belief.

And please evangelicals don't all jump up and say "hell."

I want to know what Albion thinks. He doesn't strike me as a fire insurance salesman.

 

[smaneck]

From being outcast from God because of our sins. The story of the Old Testament is of a favored people who could not live up to God's standards. The story of the New Testament is that God took it upon himself--at substantial cost--to restore us to a right relationship with him, dependent only upon us accepting the offer.

I would think that the story of the Tanakh is of God who remains faithful to His people even when they are not faithful, not that He casts them out.

 

[Albion]

I would think that the story of the Tanakh is of God who remains faithful to His people even when they are not faithful, not that He casts them out.

Well, one of the earliest accounts to be found there is of God driving his first two humans out of the garden and punishing them by depriving them of many of the gifts or benefits he had initially given them. And then he gave his people specific commands for them to follow...which of course they did not.

I would, however, agree to what you've said, depending upon what is meant by it. God did remain faithful to that people, but neither did he backtrack on the above. What he did was give them another way to escape from their sins by sending the Messiah.

 

[smaneck]

Well, one of the earliest accounts to be found there is of God driving his first two humans out of the garden and punishing them by depriving them of many of the gifts or benefits he had initially given them.

I'm not saying God doesn't punish in the Tanakh, obviously He does. But the whole issue of eternal salvation versus damnation just isn't there at least not until we get to the Book of Daniel which is heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism. It strikes me this is largely a Christian invention, or at least a concept which doesn't appear in Judaism until the Hellenistic period.

 

[Albion]

I'm not saying God doesn't punish in the Tanakh, obviously He does. But the whole issue of eternal salvation versus damnation just isn't there at least not until we get to the Book of Daniel which is heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism. It strikes me this is largely a Christian invention, or at least a concept which doesn't appear in Judaism until the Hellenistic period.

Question: Does the mention of "eternal salvation of damnation" adversely impact what I answered you a few posts back? Although I subscribe to the OT as divine revelation and take the NT in the conventional way, I can see the same explanation being offered if we were to think of Jesus as offering man little more than what some theological "progressives" insist it means--not life everlasting but a more fulfilled and purposeful life, etc. etc.

 

[HitchSlap]

I voted being a good person is more important than belief. I really don't care what you believe, I'm concerned about how you behave.

 

[smaneck]

Question: Does the mention of "eternal salvation of damnation" adversely impact what I answered you a few posts back? Although I subscribe to the OT as divine revelation and take the NT in the conventional way, I can see the same explanation being offered if we were to think of Jesus as offering man little more than what some theological "progressives" insist it means--not life everlasting but a more fulfilled and purposeful life, etc. etc.

I think what is bugging me is that the implication that God considers us outcasts, a condition which can only be changed by adopting a specific 'belief.'

 

[durangodawood]

I voted being a good person is more important than belief. I really don't care what you believe, I'm concerned about how you behave.

Me too.

Beliefs come and go.

The consequences of actions reverberate forever.

 

[smaneck]

Me too.

Beliefs come and go.

The consequences of actions reverberate forever.

Not only that, but who has control over their beliefs? I believe whatever I am persuaded is true. I have much more conscious choice over the things I do.

 

[jacks]

Both.

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?"
James 2:19-20

 

[dlamberth]

I voted being a good person is more important than belief. I really don't care what you believe, I'm concerned about how you behave.

This!!!

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[smaneck]

Jesus was bound to the old covenant as long as the Levitical priesthood was in force and the temple stood. His death signaled the imminent end of this. Until that time he obeyed the Law and adjured his disciples to do the same.

The stuff Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5 has nothing to do with the old covenant or the Levitical priesthood. To the contrary it contains what is truly new and radical yet you have managed to make it irrelevant.

Amazing . . . It reminds me of those lines from Bernstein's Mass:

God made us the boss
God gave us the cross
We turned it into a sword
To spread the Word of the Lord
We use His holy decrees
To do whatever we please

 

[scraparcs]

Ultimately, is right belief of any use unless one is utterly persuaded that there is an afterlife which consists of eternal reward and some form of eternal punishment or lesser reward? Thus, I generally lean towards right actions being of greater importance, as I am not convinced of anything yet after death.

 

[dlamberth]

I think a greatest reward in loving God is having Him as a reality in ones life. And one of the main way's that's done is, with a loving and compassionate heart, by helping those in need. Jesus was very clear about that.

What ever happens as an after life destination is totally up to God.

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