More harm than good?

[Mallon]

I've heard many a creationist state that people who subscribe to evolutionary science are just looking for a way to reject God's providence in the world.
E.g.,

It's no accident that the leaders of evolutionary thought were and are ardently opposed to the notion of the Christian God as revealed in the Bible.

Evolution is an organized belief system that encourages humans to deny their most important responsibility as part of the created.

Though the theory of evolution was invented thousands of years after the fall of man it is one of the major reasons why God is rejected today. Evolution allows you to believe anything you want to as long as it does not include acceptance of a Divine Creator.

As such, they feel that by using science against such athiests, they can convert the lost by teaching "creation science", thereby rendering credibility back to the Bible. Such motives are clearly stated in the mission statements of AiG, CMI, and DI, among others.

I disagree with this approach, and with the logic behind it.

If one thing is made clear in the Bible, it's that we convert hearts, not by defending the Genesis creation account, but by preaching the Gospel (Matthew 28:19, Rom 10:17, Rom 1:16, Mark 16:15, 1 Cor 1:17). This is the Great Commission we were all called to do.
Secondly, I think that creationist societies like the ones mentioned above do more harm than good when it comes to converting hearts, because they give the impression that Christians are illogical and irrational, letting their Bible do their thinking for them. As a result, unbelievers are left thinking, "Why become a Christian if I have to check my brain at the door?" Unfortunately, this misconception couldn't be further from the truth. The Bible teaches that God takes pleasure in our independent discovery of His creation (e.g., Proverbs 25:2). Evolutionists aren't all athiests looking to deny God and our responsibilities to Him. If anything, I think there are more people out there honestly seeking Him. They won't find Him through the Genesis account or through creation science, however. Instead, I think we ought to be pointing them in the right direction, that is the Gospel message. Taking up Christ's cross involves a conversion of the heart, not of the mind.

 

[jereth]

Secondly, I think that creationist societies like the ones mentioned above do more harm than good ....

The most dangerous and sinister thing about "creation evangelism" (as practiced by AiG and associated organisations) is that people might be converted on the basis of YECism, rather than on the basis of the gospel. What then happens if such a person realises that YECism is false? Does their faith shatter entirely? I hope not, but at the same time I wonder how many people have slid into unbelief because their faith was built on a foundation of creation science rather than on Christ.

 

[Deamiter]

The most dangerous and sinister thing about "creation evangelism" (as practiced by AiG and associated organisations) is that people might be converted on the basis of YECism, rather than on the basis of the gospel. What then happens if such a person realises that YECism is false? Does their faith shatter entirely? I hope not, but at the same time I wonder how many people have slid into unbelief because their faith was built on a foundation of creation science rather than on Christ.

I've seen it happen more than once -- almost shattered my own faith as I saw my three best friends reject God because they had been taught YEC, and as they investigated the evidence, they found that evolution is extremely well supported. As they'd been taught that the Bible can ONLY be interpreted in a YEC framework, they simply couldn't understand a Christianity that includes modern scientific understanding.

St. Augustine pinpointed this problem long ago:

It very often happens that there is some question as to the earth or the sky, or the other elements of this world -- respecting which one who is not a Christian has knowledge derived from most certain reasoning or observation, and it is very disgraceful and mischievous and of all things to be carefully avoided, that a Christian speaking of such matters as being according to the Christian Scriptures, should be heard by an unbeliever talking such nonsense that the unbeliever perceiving him to be as wide of the mark as east from west, can hardly restrain himself from laughing.

 

[jereth]

I've seen it happen more than once -- almost shattered my own faith as I saw my three best friends reject God because they had been taught YEC, and as they investigated the evidence, they found that evolution is extremely well supported. As they'd been taught that the Bible can ONLY be interpreted in a YEC framework, they simply couldn't understand a Christianity that includes modern scientific understanding.

That is really tragic, in fact it makes me feel sick. This is one of the reasons why I have become so passionate about the creationism debate. I can put up with the junk science, I can put up with the bad theology, I can put up with the politicising, on a good day I can even put up with them calling me a heretic Christian for accepting evolution. But what I can't tolerate is the marrying of YECism to the gospel such that the gospel stands or falls with YECism. This endangers the faith of many, and prevents many others coming to faith in the first place. It is a disgrace.

I have several personal friends who are so caught up in YECism that I would fear for their faith should they ever discover the falsehood of YECism. I can only pray that God keeps them safe if this happens.

 

[theFijian]

The most dangerous and sinister thing about "creation evangelism" (as practiced by AiG and associated organisations) is that people might be converted on the basis of YECism, rather than on the basis of the gospel. What then happens if such a person realises that YECism is false? Does their faith shatter entirely? I hope not, but at the same time I wonder how many people have slid into unbelief because their faith was built on a foundation of creation science rather than on Christ.

Quite so, to intertwine the Gospel with YECism is to build your house upon the sand, something Jesus discouraged.

 

[Maccie]

That is really tragic, in fact it makes me feel sick. This is one of the reasons why I have become so passionate about the creationism debate. I can put up with the junk science, I can put up with the bad theology, I can put up with the politicising, on a good day I can even put up with them calling me a heretic Christian for accepting evolution. But what I can't tolerate is the marrying of YECism to the gospel such that the gospel stands or falls with YECism. This endangers the faith of many, and prevents many others coming to faith in the first place. It is a disgrace.

I have several personal friends who are so caught up in YECism that I would fear for their faith should they ever discover the falsehood of YECism. I can only pray that God keeps them safe if this happens.

Exactly. Those who preach creationism will have to answer for each person who turned away from God, or who did not accept him, by reason of their false teaching.

 

[shernren]

As a result, unbelievers are left thinking, "Why become a Christian if I have to check my brain at the door?"

Ironic. I was just at a charismatic Christian conference where one of the speaker's high points was "We don't have to chuck our brains at the door - after all, Jesus told us to love Him with all of our minds! (Yes, give the Lord a clap offering! Yeah! Hallelujah!)" And right outside the door were a set of sermon recordings on sale - with a nice "Evolution and the Bible" 8-set. I really don't expect a set with "Is the Bible true?" and "What did Darwin really teach?" to go anywhere near the truth about evolution.

The irony is that YECism is precisely an attempt to make fundamentalist interpretation of Scripture "brainy". Right the next moment they throw "Do not lean on your own understanding!" and "God has chosen the foolish to shame the wise!" at anybody who dares to protest. But who are they fooling? Many YECs actually do leave their brains at the door and instead install a clone of some YEC leader's brains.

When someone realizes where they've left their brains they go outside the church to look for it ... and the whole operation is so painful that they never bother to go back in.

 

[Driver]

I've heard many a creationist state that people who subscribe to evolutionary science are just looking for a way to reject God's providence in the world.
E.g.,


As such, they feel that by using science against such athiests, they can convert the lost by teaching "creation science", thereby rendering credibility back to the Bible. Such motives are clearly stated in the mission statements of AiG, CMI, and DI, among others.

Do you disagree that these web sites should evangelize at all?

Secondly, I think that creationist societies like the ones mentioned above do more harm than good when it comes to converting hearts, because they give the impression that Christians are illogical and irrational, letting their Bible do their thinking for them. As a result, unbelievers are left thinking, "Why become a Christian if I have to check my brain at the door?"

No, you aren't expected to check your brain at the door. But conversion does involve the "renewing of the mind" (Romans 12:2, Ephesians 4:23). Also, from I Corinthians 1:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.​

Taking up Christ's cross involves a conversion of the heart, not of the mind.

Perhaps you misstated youself. Doesn't it include heart, soul, and mind?

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:36-40​

 

[Driver]

Ironic. I was just at a charismatic Christian conference where one of the speaker's high points was "We don't have to chuck our brains at the door - after all, Jesus told us to love Him with all of our minds! (Yes, give the Lord a clap offering! Yeah! Hallelujah!)"

You focused on the charasmatic speaker and seemed to lump the message with the messenger. What about what Jesus said?

 

[Driver]

Exactly. Those who preach creationism will have to answer for each person who turned away from God, or who did not accept him, by reason of their false teaching.

What if evolution is the false teaching and creation is the true teaching? I guess we will find out for sure some day, some sooner than others. I'm sure Darwin (being dead over 100 years) and others, evolutionists and creationists, all know the answer now.

Will God punish those who simply believe the Bible and don't worry about the details of Genesis? Shouldn't we just believe God? In the Bible, believing God was counted as righteouness. Is this still true today?

 

[Maccie]

If anyone has turned another away from God by reason of false teaching on whatever subject, then they will have to answer for it.

Otherwise, when we meet God, I don't think we are going to worry in the slightest about what we believed or didn't believe. I think we will be so overwhelmed by his presence that all our arguments and worries will be seen for what they are. Trivialities.

And we will all be face down flat on the ground before him in awe and reverence and repentance for our sins.

 

[shernren]

You focused on the charasmatic speaker and seemed to lump the message with the messenger. What about what Jesus said?

I had nothing against him being a charismatic, other than it adding depth to the irony. What I had against him was saying on one hand that Christianity is an intellectually capable faith (which it is) and then implicitly saying that real faithful Christians believe in creationism (which I am not capable to judge in blanket), resulting in the ironic idea that cretaionism is an intellectually useful conceptual understanding of the universe (which it is not).

Nuts. I've murdered my joke in analyzing it. But at least you should know now that I have nothing against charismatics for being charismatics. I am however a little frustrated with anyone who thinks that creationism makes Christianity intellectually relevant. It doesn't. Creationism is to evolutionism as elan vital is to biology.

 

[Mallon]

Do you disagree that these web sites should evangelize at all?

No. I disagree with how they are evangelizing; not why they are evangelizing.

No, you aren't expected to check your brain at the door.

That's certainly not the impression that I get. So often you'll hear YECists say, "I don't need to think about that -- I let my Bible do my thinking for me!" Or as Dr. Phil Hernandez puts it, "We claim to know the who, so we don't have to know the how."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3793684797346981918&q=evolution

There's an excuse for ignorance if I've ever heard one. I'd like to know more about both, myself.

Perhaps you misstated youself. Doesn't it include heart, soul, and mind?

Touché. I agree. Though I think a change of the heart comes first (Acts 16:14) followed by a response from the mind (Romans 10:10). Saying you accept Christ without first believing it in your heart is meaningless. And again, we change hearts with the Gospel, not with Genesis.

 

[Driver]

I had nothing against him being a charismatic, other than it adding depth to the irony. What I had against him was saying on one hand that Christianity is an intellectually capable faith (which it is) and then implicitly saying that real faithful Christians believe in creationism (which I am not capable to judge in blanket), resulting in the ironic idea that cretaionism is an intellectually useful conceptual understanding of the universe (which it is not).

Nuts. I've murdered my joke in analyzing it. But at least you should know now that I have nothing against charismatics for being charismatics. I am however a little frustrated with anyone who thinks that creationism makes Christianity intellectually relevant. It doesn't. Creationism is to evolutionism as elan vital is to biology.

You still didn't say anything about what Jesus said.



By the way, I am not a "charismatic" and don't watch them on TV, except when changing channels maybe. But, I was wondering what you thought of Jesus's comment on "loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind". Here is the passage from Matthew 22:

34But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the great and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."​

The Sadducees and Pharisees both represented the "intellectual elite" of the day.

 

[shernren]

You still didn't say anything about what Jesus said.

Jesus was never an antievolutionist nor was He an antiintellectual. That makes me very comfortable with being both an intellectual and hence an evolutionist.

 

[Driver]

Jesus was never an antievolutionist nor was He an antiintellectual. That makes me very comfortable with being both an intellectual and hence an evolutionist.

You're right about Him not being anti-intellectual. He would even put the self-proclaimed "intellectuals" of the day to silence.

And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. Matthew 22:46​

 

[jereth]

On my reading of the gospels, Jesus had a problem with arrogance, not intellectualism.

2 of the star apostles, who ended up writing scripture -- Paul and John -- were without question men of unrivalled intellect.

On the other hand, the unbridled arrogance and exclusivism of AiG, ICR and many other creationist organisations would appear to put them in the category of people that Jesus would vehemently oppose.