How about Smith's prophecy?
Jonah is a fairly easy one to answer (look at Christian responses to jehovah witnesses) but the point is the test for Smith, does he stand up?
Or was it false prophecy by Smith (again)?
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And neither was Jonah's. Does that mean Jonah was a false prophet? Or is there something else going on?
Same with Jonah.
On which verse does it say Nineveh was overthrown? My KJV Bible doesn't says the opposite.
It means your "test" is faulty. Or that the Bible is faulty.
Amen to that.And obey the bible when it gives us clear instruction.
Do as the Bible says: ask God.I remember in one of these threads you mentioning there were 30,000 different denominations. Are they all wrong or is one true, how do we know?
This is a false statement.Did you take James 1:5 out of context
1) You're asking a loaded question.and ask God about each of the 30,000 congregations is true, or did you only apply James 1:5 out of context to lds?
I already replied to your objections here. You did not listen nor respond.What do think about James 1:5 are we allowed to look at it in context?
Thoroughly.Have you ever really studied James? Who is author, what is the purpose, what is the background e.t.c
I have answered this question 3 times now.If it is the main stream lds you are a member of
Are you trying to character assassinate a man LDS already acknowledge as a sinner?God gives everyone of us a conscience, how does brigham youngs life and his teaching sit with you, better or worse than Smith? The lds have statues of this man do they not? Do they have statues of his 56 wives?
Frankly: I think you need to listen to the answers you're getting.I think we need to do a little more that take James 1:5 out of context, dont you?
Once again you've ignored everything said and not responded to a lick of it.How about Smith's prophecy?
Jonah is a fairly easy one to answer (look at Christian responses to jehovah witnesses) but the point is the test for Smith, does he stand up?
Or was it false prophecy by Smith (again)?
Some historians believe..... what do you believe and what do the lds teach?
It could equally be argued using this mans testimony that after what he saw it was the write thing to do to break away from Smith. Did Cowdry see the gold plates, did anyone see the gold plates? Do later witness confirm Smith was looking into a hat?
Maybe what happened to these three show that the followers of Smith were not loyal, so when Smith claimed his church were more loyal to him than Christ, he may have lied or been very, very deluded!
If the true church was in apostasy how did Smith and the Book of Mormon get the church out of apostasy?
Where is the fruit (the good fruit)? early records of Smith and others show that compared to other churches this new branch was more immoral than the world!
How does the lds defend this?
Once again you've ignored everything said and not responded to a lick of it.
Are you hear to have a conversation, or just rattle on some soapbox?
Either way: I am not longer going to be re-answering things I've already responded to multiple times just to be ignored. I have more self respect / time restraints than that.
The LDS Church doesn’t teach anything about it, they let the BYU historians write and argue to their hearts content. Ya know these guys have to publish to stay relevant.
Who knows what is in someone’s heart. I think most people leave any organizations for many reasons and not just one. A man will let one thing really tick him off and anger builds. Then he starts looking for more faults to justify his rebellion.
With Oliver there were 9 different charges brought against him by the council. One point in his excommunication was Joseph’s first plural marriage, it did not sit well with Oliver and he had said things that others took as seditious. Then there were these two points which probable were part of his real problem, being that he was a lawyer.
"Fourth-For virtually denying the faith by declaring that he would not be governed by any ecclesiastical authority or revelations whatever, in his temporal affairs.
"Fifth-For selling his lands in Jackson county, contrary to the revelations.
As with Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 Oliver not have his heart into having all things in common. At the time this Law of Consecration was given and even now it part of the covenants we make. Oliver was unwilling to abided by the covenant and so separated himself from the Church, the excommunication was just a formal severing of his baptism covenants etc.
Here is what Oliver wrote; First remember he’s a lawyer and sceondly Jesus taught the rich man “sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”
“I have no disposition to contend with the Council....the three great principles of English liberty, as laid down in the books, are 'the right of personal security, the right of personal liberty, and the right of private property.'....they are so woven into my nature...that I am wholly unwilling to exchange them for anything less liberal, less benevolent, or less free.
"The very principle of which I conceive to be couched in an attempt to set up a kind of petty government, controlled and dictated by ecclesiastical influence, in the midst of this national and state government. You will, no doubt, say this is not correct; but the bare notice of these charges, over which you assume a right to decide, is in my opinion, a direct attempt to make the secular power subservient to Church direction-to the correctness of which I cannot in conscience subscribe-I believe that principle never did fail to produce anarchy and confusion.
"This attempt to control me in my temporal interests, I conceive to be a disposition to take from me a portion of my Constitutional privileges and inherent right-I only, respectfully, ask leave, therefore, to withdraw from a society assuming they have such right.…”
Oliver’s property meant more to him than listening to the man he knew had seen and spoken to Jesus, he had been at Joseph side for several different vision.
You said "Maybe what happened to these three show that the followers of Smith were not loyal, so when Smith claimed his church were more loyal to him than Christ, he may have lied or been very, very deluded!"
The story of Oliver reminds me Peter in away, while pressed about being Jesus’ friend he let the world frighten him and he denied the his Savior and friend.
Now after Joseph was killed it seemed to move Oliver like Peter to repentance.
There is a letter George A. Smith wrote to Orson Pratt, 31 Oct 1848,
“…Oliver Cowdery, who had just arrived from Wisconsin with his family, on being invited, addressed the meeting. He bore testimony in the most positive terms of the truth of the Book of Mormon--the restoration of the priesthood to the earth, and the mission of Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the last days; and told the people if they wanted to follow the right path, to keep the main channel of the stream--where the body of the Church goes, there is the authority; and all these lo here's and lo there's have no authority; but this people have the true and holy priesthood; "for the angel said unto Joseph Smith, Jr., in my hearing, that this priesthood shall remain on the earth unto the end." His testimony produced quite a sensation among the gentlemen present, who did not belong to the Church, and it was gratefully received by all the Saints. Last evening (Oct. 30th) President Hyde and myself spent the evening with Brother Cowdery. He told us he had come to listen to our counsel and would do as we told him. He had been cut off from the Church by a council; had withdrawn himself from it; stayed away eleven years; and now came back, not expecting to be a leader, but wished to be a member and have part among us. He considered that he ought to be baptized; and did not expect to return without it. He said that Joseph Smith had fulfilled his mission faithfully before God until death; he was determined to rise with the Church, and if it went down he was willing to go down with it. I saw him today, told him I was going to write you. He sends his respects to you; he says, "Tell Brother Orson I am advised by the brethren to remain here this winter, and assist Brother Hyde in the printing office, and as soon as I get settled I will write him a letter." I remain, as ever your brother in the kingdom of patienc..”
He actually died a short time later with what seems to be Tuberculoses.
There are these recollections of those who were there at his death bed;
Elder Phineas H. Young, who was present at his [Oliver Cowdery's] death [at Richmond, Missouri, March 3, 1850] says, "His last moments were spent in bearing testimony of the truth of the Gospel revealed through Joseph Smith, and the power of the holy priesthood which he had received through his administrations." [See MS 21 (1859):545.]
Oliver Cowdery's half-sister, Lucy P. Young, widow of Phineas H. Young, relates that Oliver Cowdery just before breathing his last asked his attendants to raise him up in bed that he might talk to the family and his friends who were present. He then told them to live according to the teachings contained in the Book of Mormon, and promised them if they would do this that they would meet him in heaven. He then said, "Lay me down and let me fall asleep." A few moments later he died, without a struggle.
David Whitmer testified to Apostles Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith in 1878, as follows: "Oliver died the happiest man I ever saw. After shaking hands with the family and kissing his wife and daughter, he said, "Now I lay me down for the last time: I am going to my Savior;" and he died immediately with a smile on his face.
Life of Oliver Cowdery
Now on friends being loyal.
When the Jewish leaders came to arrest Jesus his apostles scattered in fear,
“But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.” Matt 27:56
Peter alone followed from a distance and then denied him. As He hung on the cross the only one there was John and a few women.
When Joseph Smith was facing his death he literally had to send people away. John Taylor, Willard Richards, John Fullmer, Dan Jones, Stephen Markham, Cyrus Wheelock, his brothers Hyrum and Samuel Smith, and his uncle John Smith all went with him to Carthage. His aged Uncle braved walking through the mob to gain entrance into the jail. All of their lives were threatened by the mob but they still stayed with Joseph until he sent all but four on errands and then they were not allowed back in.
You might not know this but Samuel Smith was also wounded on that day. He had gone home to his wife and family and was the first to hear the news of his brothers deaths. He jumped upon his horse and dogging bullets rode as fast as he could to the jail. He stayed all night with the bodies. It is felt because of the description of his illness that somehow as he bent over the saddle horn to doge the bullets and riding as fast as he did he damaged his internal organs. He died a month later. Lucy Smith lost three sons within a month of each other.
Once again you've ignored everything said and not responded to a lick of it.
Are you hear to have a conversation, or just rattle on some soapbox?
Either way: I am not longer going to be re-answering things I've already responded to multiple times just to be ignored. I have more self respect / time restraints than that.
And.... ? Are you suggesting that one website address every issue every person could have?The lds website does not really address the issues and questions many people have.
I assure you I have investigated all of these questions thoroughly (this is the ~fifth time I addresses this question). My answers here are short because that is my posting style on a forum. I also feel uncompelled to write you entire essays when you're apparently uninterested in listen to me. WWA does write long response (her style) and you have also ignored them.I would prefer for you to look at the questions and see if you can find an honest answer for your self rather than respond within 2 min with one line answers.
I have already addressed this 4 times.As you said there are over 30,000 different denominations, so there is nothing wrong with searching for the truth!
Dj said; Nineveh repeat end but later went back to her evil ways and the city was ultimately destroyed.
Alright we will get even more detailed.
First off I think we need to know that this was recorded in William Claytons Journal, it was not one of the prophecies for which Joseph had a half dozen scribes writing and then him checking it for the exact wording.
What we have is Clayton’s impressions of what Joseph said written several hours later and is why there is a tug of war between the different historians as to Joseph’s intent.
Then I need to give you another quote;
From Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 7:15 — “Will the Constitution be destroyed? No; it will be held inviolate by this
people; and, as Joseph Smith said, “The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.”
So Joseph did not feel the Constitution would be completely destroyed and you have to look at this prophecy in that light.
In December of 1833 Joseph received this revelation and the beginning to what is a series of Civil War Prophecies.
D&C 101
77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.
There is a hint that the land would have to be redeemed by the shedding of blood because of the slaves issue. In other words we’re going to have a war.
Now the prophecy as Clayton recorded a full ten years later after the first hinting at the Civil War.
'I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished, thereby perpetrating a foul and corroding blot upon the fair fame of this great republic,…”
The question is did Joseph mean the United States Constitution or did he mean the government of Missouri and the officers which permitted the murder of men, women and children.
Since Joseph had said the Constitution would hang by a thread but not be over thrown it is felt he meant the state of Missouri’s government. The hanging by a thread is yet to be fulfilled, unless you count the time Br. Hatch saved it all by himself.
There is yet another prophecy concerning this. General Alexander Doniphan literally saved Joseph’s life just before he placed in the pit at Liberty Jail by refusing to obey an order to execute him. He called it murder. Years later he acted as Joseph’s Lawyer and Joseph overheard a conversation. This is recorded by Doniphan brother in-law Leonidas M. Lawson.
“ During Smith's presence in the office, a resident of Jackson county, Missouri, came in for the purpose of paying a fee which was due by him to the firm of Doniphan & Baldwin, and offered in payment a tract of land in Jackson county.
"Doniphan told him that his partner, Mr. Baldwin, was absent at the moment, but as soon as he had an opportunity he would consult him and decide about the matter. When the Jackson county man retired, Joseph Smith, who had overheard the conversation, addressed General Doniphan about as follows:
"'Doniphan, I advise you not to take that Jackson county land in payment of the debt. God's wrath hangs over Jackson county. God's people have been ruthlessly driven from it, and you will live to see the day when it will be visited by fire and sword. The Lord of Hosts will sweep it with the besom of destruction. The fields and farms and houses will be destroyed, and only the chimneys will be left to mark the desolation.'
"General Doniphan said to me that the devastation of Jackson county forcibly reminded him of this remarkable prediction of the Mormon Prophet. . . .”
During the Civil War General Sherman’s army marched through there and literally only the chimneys were left standing. Parts of Missouri were under what was called Order No. 11 which is a Union Army directive forcing the evacuation of four counties of western Missouri.
This prophecy and many others were or will be fulfilled.
How is the Book of Mormon and the lds good fruits, can we compare them to Christians to see?Haven't we shown you that much of what you have been taught about Joseph Smith is not true?
His fruits is the Book of Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
You can compare people, but can't compare the Book of Mormon to anything in Christendom.How is the Book of Mormon and the lds good fruits, can we compare them to Christians to see?
Huh? Revivals are a Low Protestant thing, not LDS.How have revivals in Mormon areas such as Utah helped anyone?
LDS acknowledge the Bible as scripture and study it twice as much than the Book of Mormon, so this is a logically invalid point.Look at the effect the bible had on society during the ministry of these men.
And.... ? Are you suggesting that one website address every issue every person could have?
I assure you I have investigated all of these questions thoroughly (this is the ~fifth time I addresses this question). My answers here are short because that is my posting style on a forum. I also feel uncompelled to write you entire essays when you're apparently uninterested in listen to me. WWA does write long response (her style) and you have also ignored them.
I have already addressed this 4 times.
Asking my question for the 3rd time because you've still not answered it: are you here to lecture from a soapbox, or have a respectful conversation where people listen to each other?
Then please actually listen and respond to what is written. (Sorry for being aggravated, but thus far you have not been doing that).I have listened and searched and the more I learn about the lds the more questions I have....
Huh?If we disagree with the lds it does not mean we are not listening does it.
Your underlying assumption here is "having multiple wives is inherently evil". That assumption in thus far unsubstantiated. Would you declare Jacob and Abraham (great patriarch of all Abrahamic faiths) to be inherently evil men?Do you think the lds can easily answer the multi wives easily?
Your underlying assumption here is LDS have to justify everything Joseph Smith ever did or view him as sinless. These are both false, and your question without foundation.Do we just not listen to your answers or do you think that Smith live style is very very difficult to justify?
It was addressed al the way back in post 102. You did not respond.I don't think you have answered the james1:5 question
This is a non answer to my question.The last point on a soapbox or being respectful, is slightly against the nature of these forums. You could ask this question to anyone who has an opinion on anything you disagree with. You surely have the discernment to realise if I or anyone is not listening and on a soapbox... do not respond if it bothers you that much! Not everyone responds to everything on the forum. Maybe pick one Christian doctine that is different from the lds and show us why the bible is wrong or the Book of Mormon is better in one area?
False dichotomy.It is very difficult to defend Smith and the lds, against the bible.
How is the Book of Mormon and the lds good fruits, can we compare them to Christians to see?
How have revivals in Mormon areas such as Utah helped anyone? Compare these to revivals let's say in the U.K. Whitfield, Wesley, Spurgeon. These were true Christians name one Mormon who one tenth of the good works these men produced ?
Look at the effect the bible had on society during the ministry of these men. Look at the benift the bible had in England! Were there wars, bank fraud, evidences of men marrying many wives, free masonary practises going on? Have a look and see?
You shall know them by their fruits.....
Have a look at testimonies of former lds members who have discovered the biblical Christ
It not a so much a game as historical facts.Two can play this game;
Did ya know that John Wesley and George Whitfield disagreed over salvation. Wesley favored the Arminian school and spoke out strongly against the doctrines of Calvinistic election. But, Whitefield lean to Calvinism. They had a huge falling out over it but did manage to patch things up.
Did Ya know George Whitfield advocated for slavery
He believed black people were “human,” but “subordinate Creatures”, (ah isn’t that good of him)
Did you know slavery had been outlawed in the Georgia colony in 1735 but Whitfield fought to change the law so he could own slaves, he had 50 of them.
So if Georgia had stayed slave free it would have changed the balance of slave states it might have changed our whole destiny. We have him to thank for slavery with all of its suffering and a Civil War that killed 620,000 American soldiers.
So much for good fruits.
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