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More evidence for evolution.

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by kaotic, Nov 22, 2002.

  1. kaotic

    kaotic Learn physics

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  2. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

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    Alas, it doesn't do much to prove macroevolution, since they're still dogs; different breeds can still reproduce-- although it would be funny to toss a poodle in with a pit bull in heat and see what happens... ;)

    And it certainly dosn't have anything to do with natural selection, for the simple reason that there were nothing natural about the selection. People bred the dogs to serve their purpose. Had the dogs split into different breeds on their own in response to their respective environments, then it would be more Darwinian.

    Interesting article, tho...
     
  3. kaotic

    kaotic Learn physics

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    blah lOL the post made no sence. HAHA.
     
  4. DNAunion

    DNAunion Active Member

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    DNAunion: ?
     
  5. kaotic

    kaotic Learn physics

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    HAHA sorry I just read what I said it doesn't make sence. My bad. hahah.
     
  6. stray bullet

    stray bullet God Made Me A Skeptic

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    I don't see how this is anymore evidence than the different races of humans. We all came from the same area, some Christians believe the same parents, but yet, there are so many races.
     
  7. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    You would have to get something like a hamster to evolve into a dog to prove evolution. Everything reproduces after it's kind. It is a interesting artical though. Also the artical a few days ago about the wolf's that there was only a mother and a father and the brothers and sisters were breeding among themselves and how they were going extinct tell a outsider wolf came along. They grew in size from 10 to 100, because some new genes came along. That puts a real dent in the idea that the son of Adam and Eve mated with a sister. Because it is now known that a race can not form itself between a brother and a sister.

    Genesis 1:12
        And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    Genesis 1:21
        And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    Genesis 1:24-25
        And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. [25] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    Genesis 6:20
        Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

    Genesis 7:14
        They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.


     
     
  8. kaotic

    kaotic Learn physics

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    Prove? We know it can't be proven DUH! :D
     
  9. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

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    There are other articles showing that dogs are no longer a single species. This one looked at the genetics and concluded that there are 4 species of dogs now.

     C Vila, P Savolainen, JE. Maldonado, IR. Amorim, JE. Rice, RL. Honeycutt, KA. Crandall, JLundeberg, RK. Wayne, Multiple and Ancient Origins of the Domestic Dog Science 276: 1687-1689, 13 JUNE 1997.

    The article Seesaw posted was about common ancestry, not natural selection. Darwin used artificial selection and what it could do modifying morphology as an argument that such selection could also happen in the wild -- natural selection.  Humans are acting in the role of environment. So dogs are just as much "Darwinian" as anything that happens in nature.  After all, if species really were immutable, as the theory of special creation stated, then the modifications by artificial selection wouldn't be possible.
     
  10. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

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    Originally posted by JohnR7 You would have to get something like a hamster to evolve into a dog to prove evolution.

    All you need to "prove" evolution is new species.  Because the biological reality is species.  The transition you are talking about is simply multiple speciation events spread through time. 

    Now, your example is between two families. Rodents and canines. Well, in the fossil record are series of transitional individuals linking two families. 
    Transitional series from one family to another in foraminerfera
    1. http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/foram/foramintro.html
    2.  http://cushforams.niu.edu/Forams.htm

    There are also transitions between one order to another and between one class and another. That latter is the equivalent of going from reptiles to mammals.

    Transitional individuals from one class to another
    1.  Principles of Paleontology by DM Raup and SM Stanley, 1971, there are transitional series between classes.  (mammals and reptiles are examples of a class)
    2.  HK Erben, Uber den Ursprung der Ammonoidea. Biol. Rev. 41: 641-658, 1966.

    Transitional individuals from one order to another
    1. C Teichert "Nautiloidea-Discorsorida"  and "Actinoceratoidea" in Treatise on Invertebrate Paleontology ed RC Moore, 1964

    So, by your criteria, evolution is proved.  Thank you.

    Also the artical a few days ago about the wolf's that there was only a mother and a father and the brothers and sisters were breeding among themselves and how they were going extinct tell a outsider wolf came along. They grew in size from 10 to 100, because some new genes came along. That puts a real dent in the idea that the son of Adam and Eve mated with a sister. Because it is now known that a race can not form itself between a brother and a sister.

    Can you cite that article? Actually, a single pair has about 75% of the genetic diversity of the entire population.  And founder events involving a single breeding pair-- particularly Drosophila in Hawaii -- are known.

    Genesis 1:12
        And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good
    .

    This quote equates "kind" to species.  And therefore we have seen new "kinds" come into existence.  Examples include:
    2.  Speciation in action  Science 72:700-701, 1996  A great laboratory study of the evolution of a hybrid plant species.  Scientists did it in the lab, but the genetic data says it happened the same way in nature.  Follow up paper in PNAS http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/95/20/11757
    2a. Hybrid speciation in peonies  http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/061288698v1#B1
    5.  Toxic Tailings and Tolerant Grass by RE Cook in Natural History, vol90(3): 28-38, 1981 
    Muntzig, A, Triticale Results and Problems, Parey, Berlin, 1979. Describes whole new *genus* of plants, Triticosecale, of several species, a hybrid of wheat and rye.

    Genesis 1:21
        And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good
    .

    Transitional series of land animals to whales:
    1.  http://www.neoucom.edu/Depts/ANAT/whaleorigins.htm
    2.  http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v413/n6853/full/413277a0_fs.html

    The data are very clear that new populations unable to "breed after their own kind" have been made both in the lab and in the wild. 

    Thank you for showing that macroevolution is speciation by aliteral interpretation of the Bible, so that we can show you that macroevolution has happened.
     
  11. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

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    Stray, dogs no longer interbreed with wolves.  New species.  So the article shows common ancestry.  Just like the fossil record shows the transitionals between H. erectus and H. sapiens (us). 

    Now, you could say that all dogs were like races.  However, interbreeding doesn't happen between all dog breeds, either.  Sometimes the isolating mechanism is genital incompatibility, like breeding a male Great Dane with a chihuahua.  At the very least dogs are a "ring species".  The article I posted looking at the genes sugggests that dogs are grouped in 4 species genetically.

    Humans may also be a ring species.  To my knowledge, not all possible breeding pairs have been done.  For instance, I'm not sure a pygmy and a Masai could interbreed to produce a fertile offspring.  Presumably Northern Europeans and Australian aborigines engaged in sex, but I haven't seen a lot of data on mixed race individuals in Australia.  Maybe someone has seen documentation of such individuals.
     
  12. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    Of course they could produce a offspring. Hundreds of thousands of Filipino women have married men from European decent and had babies. In fact, I am married to a Filipino women and my son is half filipino. Although if I had to guess at it, I would say if you go back 2500 years, she is of Mongolian decent. But I know Filipino women who are pretty small, and my guess would be they are of Pygmy decent.

    It is a pretty sure thing, if she did not do a lot of praying, she would need a C section though. A normal sized baby in the Philippines is around 5 or 6 pounds compared to the 7 or 8 pounds of a baby from European decent.
     
  13. sulphur

    sulphur thylacine

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    Conception between northern europeans and australian aborigines has lead to normal births and development for the last few centuries.
     
  14. defblind&mute

    defblind&mute New Member

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    hehehe... sorry.
     
  15. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

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    We were talking African pygmies and Masai.  You didn't address that one at all. Nor did you address Northern Europeans and the aborigines.  Your Filipino is not of pygmy descent within the last 100,000 years, since that is the time H. sapiens left Africa and the pygmies are still in the jungles of the Congo.  So, after 100,000 years of geographical separation, are Filipinos still genetically compatible with pygmies.

    Your use of a C section points to another reproductive isolating mechanism -- fetal incompatibility.  Size of the fetus compared to size of the birth canal is part of this.  In the absence of modern medicine, the baby would die (and probably the mother). This would make them separate species since they can't produce living offspring.

    So, without modern surgical techniques, you have two separate species. Thanks, John. I think you just demonstrated that humans are a ring species.
     
  16. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

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    That's nice. Now where did you get the data behind that statement?  As I said, I haven't seen biracial kids in Australia or any mention of them.  I'd appreciate it if you could tell me where you found the data.
     
  17. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks lucaspa, you just demonstrated how people can twist and warp the facts to get them to fit their preconceived theorys.

    Anyways, they love to study the pygmys, so just give it time. I am sure with what is now known about DNA they will be in there maping out their genes in no time at all.

    I am sure you will find they started in Africa, but a few of them migrated into Australia and the Philippines. There seems to be three groups of people those who went south, east and west from where Eden use to be.

    The Philippines tends to have come down from the east, but a few came up from the south.

    Everyone alive today, can be traced back to Adam and Eve anyways. God is only going to run this out 64 generations, and we are very close to that now.
     
  18. sampo

    sampo Think for yourself!!

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    ...something you have demonstrated quite ably on a number of occasions.
     
  19. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    Nice of you to say I am quite an able person :)
     
  20. sampo

    sampo Think for yourself!!

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    Never said otherwise!
     
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