More and More

[ValleyGal]

It seems there are a lot of people expressing similar issues in their marriages right now...women who seem to need to take on much more responsibility than they should because their husbands either do not contribute or do not contribute enough. I have noticed it in more places than on the forum here as well.

My question is why? In a world where a lot of men and couples still believe that the man is the "leader" and primary provider, etc, how is it possible that these "leaders and providers" are not leading and providing?

Are women advancing in society because of feminism, or are women simply picking up the slack that men leave? Have men abandoned their leadership post and women simply have no choice? Are women doing this out of necessity or out of rebellion? (When I say "men" and "women" I mean in very general and global terms, not specific couples, since we all know someone who does not fit the mould)

Just to clarify, my own worldview does not include men as leaders and providers; my husband and I share these responsibilities in our home, and we are egalitarian. Either way, if a man is not doing his share, whether it's an equal share or "primary" (leader/provider) share, there is a problem, leaving the wife to pick up his slack and do more than her share.

I don't get it. Why are so many men doing this?

 

[Inkachu]

My first thought is that we mostly hear about these stories online, such as here in this forum, and that's because this is where women come when they have a problem and need to talk about it. In other words, the happy wives with supportive husbands aren't coming here to tell their stories, because they don't need to. We might hear a dozen sad stories here on this forum, but how do we know there aren't a hundred happy ones for that dozen?

Support forums like this aren't always an accurate indicator of what's happening "in the real world". Is this a common crisis all over the world? All over America? All over your particular town? Just among your friends and family?

I honestly don't have a big enough social circle to say whether or not this is the case in my own offline circles.

 

[akmom]

It's the case for some (not all) in my social circles too. While we probably do find a greater proportion of problems on advice forums, I do think it's a trend.

I think one reason is the epidemic of divorce. Men in this generation came from broken homes, and were usually raised primarily by their mothers. They are used to seeing their mothers do all the caretaking, and also provide for them financially. Even if they were getting child support from the father, the children were not seeing him work, not hearing him talk about work when he came home, not hearing about money from him. And I think many mothers were not even honest about the father's financial contribution. So maybe they just grew up not seeing any contribution from the father, and having the impression that this is just what moms do.

The other thing I blame is videogames. When I was a kid, people would play them a little bit, but they weren't a big deal. My parents never played them. Ever. It would have been hilarious to see a grown man playing videogames when I was a kid. That is just not something that my father's generation did. Now they are a big deal, and for a lot of men I think it is an addiction. And we all know that people aren't very productive when they have addictions in the way. (My husband disagrees, saying videogames just replaced other vices, like going out drinking or watching TV all day. I disagree, because I think they are inherently more satisfying than TV - because of the interaction and even social components - and practicing the addiction is less visible than going out drinking, thus less accountability.)

Another theory that was heavily pushed back when I was in college (~10 years ago) was that education and even college admission has morphed over the years to be more accommodating of the way women learn and focus more on subjects where women tend to excel versus men. And this is arguably because of feminism. And in our communication age, maybe these skills even became more relevant. If more women are graduating from college, then it makes sense that more of them are getting jobs. (Although it seems that most of the people with problems are perpetual students.)

It could also be economic. Men in our generation have had low job prospects for so long that they are becoming complacent about unemployment. But you would expect the same morale in women - unless, of course, they are more employable (possibly for the reasons stated above).

 

[akmom]

Yes, I do think that women are advancing out of necessity, rather than feminism. (And boy do I wish I knew how to change this ugly, narrow font that is hard on my eyes.)

ETA: Oh, that is so much better! (Thx Inkachu)

 

[Inkachu]

Men in this generation came from broken homes, and were usually raised primarily by their mothers. They are used to seeing their mothers do all the caretaking, and also provide for them financially. Even if they were getting child support from the father, the children were not seeing him work, not hearing him talk about work when he came home, not hearing about money from him. And I think many mothers were not even honest about the father's financial contribution. So maybe they just grew up not seeing any contribution from the father, and having the impression that this is just what moms do.

I hadn't thought about this. This rings very true, now that you mention it, Akmom.

And you can change your font from your user control panel It's under the "edit options" link on the left side. The font controls are all the way at the bottom of the list.

 

[QueSeraSera]

I don't know if its "more and more " rather than its just more and more through social media that we hear these dynamics that have always been around . There really is no way to be sure .

These types have always been around .Whether its increasing or not again would be really hard to tell . I know one thing is sure, there is still a significant portion of men having the mind frame that even if both people work somehow the bulk of house labor is assumed the woman's .

 

[mkgal1]

I think one reason is the epidemic of divorce. Men in this generation came from broken homes, and were usually raised primarily by their mothers. They are used to seeing their mothers do all the caretaking, and also provide for them financially.

I think this is a great point. I'm reading a book right now that raises the question about what we've "caught" growing up (and how, if not recognized) we pass it on to our children (repeat cycles). I think that's just what's behind this verse:

I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.~Exodus 20:5-6

 

[akmom]

Not to derail the original topic of the thread, but that is a great point you bring up, Mkgal! I heard a sermon along those lines as well, using the example of alcoholism. There are direct consequences for the alcoholic, but then there seems to be the same consequences for the children indirectly, because they inevitably pick up their parents' behaviors and repeat the same mistakes. It's so hard to break the cycle. We also see it with other addictions, physical abuse, poverty. Kind of scary to think that a broken home can ruin family dynamics for generations. Makes you wonder... can we ever put a stop to it?

 

[mkgal1]

I believe we can (many people have, personally, shown me how they have). It all begins with (I think) recognizing what doesn't "work" (what's unhealthy--what needs to be discarded) and what needs to be taken on (new attitudes and beliefs).

I don't think maturity and growth in Christ are limited to spirituality----it's emotional health as well (something that I think is often getting tossed aside in the church).

It seems to be a biblical concept (that it takes effort on our behalf) that spiritual/emotional growth doesn't just "happen" when one becomes a Christian.

Throw off your old sinful nature and your former way of life, which is corrupted by lust and deception. 23 Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes. 24 Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy.~Ephesians 4:22-24

 

[Wren]

I don't know if its "more and more " rather than its just more and more through social media that we hear these dynamics that have always been around . There really is no way to be sure .

These types have always been around .Whether its increasing or not again would be really hard to tell . I know one thing is sure, there is still a significant portion of men having the mind frame that even if both people work somehow the bulk of house labor is assumed the woman's .

These are pretty much my thoughts. I witnessed a lot of men who had no interest in being leaders or even partners in their marriages when I was growing up. To be honest, the idea of getting married (and especially having children if I did get married) was not all that appealing when I was younger because of that. Thankfully, I have a husband who is not like that at all.

And if I just had the misfortune of being raised around a freakish few irresponsible men and it really is more of a modern problem, I'd say that it's less about feminism and more about necessity/survival.

 

[Boidae]

Hmmm... most here know that I do the bulk of the housework, but then, my wife is disabled and is not able to do them (not saying anyone has accused me or anything, just stating this to flesh out my post). When I lived with my ex-girlfriend, the bulk of the house cleaning fell to me, since I was the homemaker. I truly do not mind doing housework.

Growing up I was in a single parent home. My mom. I learned how to cook at an early age, I also learned how to clean at an early age. It's not that I was required to clean, but I wanted to help my mom out. As I got older though, I didn't want to clean anymore... lol. However, I learned that if I don't do it, it's not getting done real quick.

Back to when I was growing up, my grandfather, even when he worked still helped my grandmother clean the house. They tackled it together. When dishes needed to be washed, she washed them and he dried them then put them away. He dusted, he vacuumed, he cleaned toilets. My grandparents were born before 1920 and were very old fashioned, although and it's strange since I have heard it's tradition that men are the leader in the home, it was my grandmother who was the leader. They were both Catholic, and were in church every Saturday evening without fail. My grandfather was captain of the ushers for 25 years.

It seems my family, while we have problems just like other families, seems to break the mold of what "traditional" is supposed to be.

 

[LinkH]

I think one of the problems with the extreme emphasis on gender equality (or 'sameness') and feminism in our society is that it has led to a situation where men don't know their role. Many men aren't told they have a responsibility to provide for their wives. We raise kids playing video games and watching TV instead of working. Lot of adult men now play video games and don't work hard to prepare for the future.

After writing that, I need to get back to work on something...

 

[Niffer]

Society had made an environment where men are no longer made to feel like responsibility is their role. That their leadership is unwanted and not necessary.
That there is no reason to 'step up' into being a productive person if someone is there to "do everything" for them.

They've been pacified into child-men, by women who tell them they aren't needed.


It's hardly surprising that this is an issue.

~ Niffer

 

[ChristianGolfer]

I don't understand how being raised to believe that their "leadership is not wanted" would translate into men not doing housework.

Is doing chores now considered leadership?

I was raised by parents who shared all the household responsibilities. My maternal grandparents were the traditional "husband is the head of the household" type and all of the cooking, cleaning and childcare were "women's work." My grandfather rarely lifted a finger (until they got older and my grandmother started getting senile and my grandpa started doing most of the chores.)

In my experience the mindset of "husband is the leader" went hand in hand with having clearly delineated "men's work" and "women's work." Women did more of the household chores because that was beneath the "leader."

I think that there aren't actually more instances of women doing more household work these days. I think there's less of that. More men have been raised to share the load. But I think we see more women complaining about it because society's expectations have changed. In the past it was expected, by everyone, that women would do more of the chores around the house and therefore women didn't really think to complain about it. It's just the way it was. As it becomes more the norm for men and women to divvy up the chores, women who find themselves with men who don't are going to be more likely to complain about it.

 

[akmom]

But the question was about why men aren't providing for their families (financially is implied), not whether they help their wives with chores. I think the observation is that there are a lot of men who leave all or most of the breadwinning, homemaking and childcare to the women.

 

[Autumnleaf]

But the question was about why men aren't providing for their families (financially is implied), not whether they help their wives with chores. I think the observation is that there are a lot of men who leave all or most of the breadwinning, homemaking and childcare to the women.

Men are providing for their families. Where I work I see it all the time.

Some women choose to marry men who don't, and then they complain about it. If I go to the store and buy a Coke, do I have any rational grounds to complain that that Coke doesn't taste like orange juice? Working to support other people is not always fun. I think many women choose to get into that role and then they get resentful when they stay there. If you want a man who will support you then you need to marry that kind of man. Don't tell me its hard to figure out what kind of man that is. Often its the guy who tells you you won't work if you marry him.

 

[ValleyGal]

I was actually thinking about both provision as well as division of chores - but someone else worded it better - it's lack of responsibility in general. Even if men are raised in egalitarian homes, they are still at least 50% responsible. So I have a real concern when I hear of so many young marriages (and even some middle aged ones) that struggle due to the husband's irresponsibility.

That said, I want to be fair. I do recognize there are women who are unfair and irresponsible as well, as evidenced on the boards - posts like women spending more than they make, women who are "stay home wives" who do not even do any of the cooking or cleaning, etc. Maybe I'm just more exposed to men's irresponsibility, maybe women are more likely than men to complain, etc (now I'm talking in general terms, but again to clarify, not everyone fits into those situations).

It's a curious trend - if it's a trend.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

I agree that even though we see alot of this on here, we tend to hear about the bad marriage on here because if you have a good marriage you likely don't post about it.

I also think the country seems so mixed up and confusing now neither sex knows what its like to be normal anymore. So many voices telling each person to do something but not something else. While the other voice says the opposite. I will agree that to some degree men feel like they are darned if they do and darned if they don't because of the way of the countries going.

Then you get into issues of people marrying to young so marriages just continue to fail because they weren't ready to marry yet. THen theres the aspect of what we do in our life before we marry. If you play games all day then your not going to be ready for marriage right off the bat. And because of all this broken families are creating future broken spouses.

 

[seeingeyes]

I was actually thinking about both provision as well as division of chores - but someone else worded it better - it's lack of responsibility in general. Even if men are raised in egalitarian homes, they are still at least 50% responsible. So I have a real concern when I hear of so many young marriages (and even some middle aged ones) that struggle due to the husband's irresponsibility.

That said, I want to be fair. I do recognize there are women who are unfair and irresponsible as well, as evidenced on the boards - posts like women spending more than they make, women who are "stay home wives" who do not even do any of the cooking or cleaning, etc. Maybe I'm just more exposed to men's irresponsibility, maybe women are more likely than men to complain, etc (now I'm talking in general terms, but again to clarify, not everyone fits into those situations).

It's a curious trend - if it's a trend.

If we have to gauge this based on 'who's complaining' then we are stuck examining self-selecting groups. So it's impossible to say whether the trend is an uptick in irresponsibility or an uptick in complaining (a strong case could be made for that, too, we are well past the point where 'stoicism' is encouraged).

 

[ChristianGolfer]

But the question was about why men aren't providing for their families (financially is implied), not whether they help their wives with chores. I think the observation is that there are a lot of men who leave all or most of the breadwinning, homemaking and childcare to the women.

Hm. You may be right. I read the word "contribute" and my mind went to other things than making money.