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Morality without Absolute Morality

Bradskii

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So ... evolution is the source of rights? Murder is wrong because evolution requires that outcome?
Kant (categorical imperative), Jesus (treat other as you yourself would wish to be treated) and myself are as one regarding this. Killing people at random is a bad idea. Therefore we ought not to do it. That wasn't a rule as such in our very distant past. But it evolved as one because those that thought it was a good idea outlived those that didn't.

Ah, the wonders of evolution.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Checks Kindle...

1984 - Orwell
The Adapted Mind (Evolutionary psychology) - Tooby and Cosmides
Animal Farm - Orwell
Answering atheism - Horn
Behave - Sapolsky
The Big Picture - Carrol
The Blank Slate - Pinker
The Blind Watchmaker - Dawkins
Brave New World - Huxley
Sapiens - Harari
The Conscious Mind - Chalmers
The Dawn of Everything - Graeber and Wengrow
Determined - Sapolsky
An Enquiry Concerning the Principles of Morals - Hume
Ethics in the Real World - Singer
Evidence of Purpose - Templeton
Evolutionary Psychology - Dunbar, Lycett
Free Agents - Pereboom
Free Will - Pereboom
From Bacteria to Bach - Dennett
The God Argument - Grayling
The Happiness Hypothesis - Haidt
How the Mind Works -mPInker
The History of Philosophy - Grayling
The Human Mind - Bloom
An Introduction to the Principles of Moral and Legislation - Bentham
The Last Superstition - Feser
Letters From a Stoic - Seneca
Leviathan - Hobbes
Lord Of The Flies - Golding
The Naked Ape - Morris
Meditations - Aurelius
Mere Christianity - Lewis
The Moral Animal - Wright
Moral Tribes - Greene
National Populism - Eatwell, Goodwin
Natural Moralities - Wong
Objectivism - Rand
The Communist Manifesto - Marx
The Philosophers Toolkit - Baggini
The Portable Voltaire - Voltaire
Pragmatism - James
Republic - Plato
The Righteous Mind - Haidt
Rights of Man - Paine
The End of Faith Harris
The End of History - Fukuyama
The God Delusion - Dawkins
The Origins of Political Order - Fukuyama
The Social Contest of Earth - Wilson
Thinking Fast and Slow - Kahneman
Treatises on Friendship - Cicero
The Trouble with Testosterone - Sapolski
Utilitarianism - Mill
The Varieties of Religious Experience - James
The View from Nowhere - Nagel

Granted that some of those only have a passing connection with ethics.

.... well, that explains some of your expressed confidence, even if your list seems to lean more toward Modern Philosophy (except for the obvious indulgences you seem to take in current Evolutionary Psychology).

With this being the case, it's no wonder you and I are at loggerheads much of the time.
 
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Bradskii

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.... well, that explains some of your expressed confidence, even if your list seems to lean more toward Modern Philosophy (except for the obvious indulgences you seem to take in current Evolutionary Psychology).
Well I had Aurelius and Plato in there somewhere. Most philosophy prior to the 'modern' era tends to the religious, so it's Voltaire and later for me.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well I had Aurelius and Plato in there somewhere. Most philosophy prior to the 'modern' era tends to the religious, so it's Voltaire and later for me.

If it's Voltaire and on, then that would mostly be 'Modern Philosophy' then, like I was say'n. (i.e. 17th to the early 20th century). ;)
 
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Bradskii

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Why is torturing babies wrong?

"Reason says, because of evolutionary grease".

Well I guess that's a view.
That's not how evolution works. And hey, I thought you were a fan of Kant. He used reason to determine morality. Now it's a bad idea?

Are you empathetic? Yeah, me too. Comes in handy, doesn't it. You a parent? Yeah, me too. That emotional bond, eh? Now those are evolved concepts. They are evolutionary beneficial. Rather obviously. So if you see a child being harmed you can imagine their pain. And you can envisage your child feeling that pain. And you most definitely don't want that to happen. It's entirely natural. So harming children is a bad idea on those two levels at least. And if you actually feel that it's a bad idea, rather than sitting down with a pen and some paper and sketching a logic diagram to work out the possible outcomes of allowing it then you'll reject it automatically.

Those people who did that, those people who felt that it was somehow wrong, rather than have to reason it out, well their kids outlived those of people who were a bit slow on the uptake.

It's like love. An evolutionary development that allows pair bonding to survive. What? It's just part of our genetic make up? No way! Well, yes. That's exactly what it is. But knowing what it is doesn't make it feel any less than it does. Doesn't make it feel any less real. So feeling that it's wrong to harm children is likewise an evolutionary development. But it still feels entirely natural.

It's like Feynman (say hi to my avatar) when he said that knowing the molecular and biological structure of a rose and knowing how the light reflect off the petals at a certain wavelength and how the molecules trigger sense organs in the nose and transmit that to certain parts of the brain...all of that adds to the wonder of a rose. How it looks and smells. It doesn't detract from it.

Same with evolution.
 
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Bradskii

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If it's Voltaire and on, then that would mostly be 'Modern Philosophy' then, like I was say'n. (i.e. 17th to the early 20th century).
I had to look up his date of birth so I had someone to start with. He just sneaks in.
 
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Colo Millz

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It's like love. An evolutionary development ...

Nothin but. Explaining away, rather than explaining.

Love involves self-transcendence, creativity, sacrifice, and meaning that seem to exceed mere reproductive fitness.
 
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Bradskii

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Love involves self-transcendence, creativity, sacrifice, and meaning that seem to exceed mere reproductive fitness.
Indeed. I agree. Just be aware that from the day I started becoming interested in evolution in 1967 (see The Naked Ape by Desmond Morris in the list of books I posted) I haven't grown less in love with my wife as my knowledge of the subject has grown (she's sitting opposite me as I write this).
 
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Hans Blaster

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Bradskii

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It rarely results in the acquisition of useful tactical information.
The wonders of forum discourse. I laughed out loud at that and my wife wanted to know what I was reading. Ah...just some comments on torturing babies my dear...

A short pause and then she went back to the business news. You could almost see the thought bubble appear: 'Mm, I don't think I'll take that any further...'
 
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com7fy8

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You can have two different moral positions held by two Christians, both of whom are convinced that God is informing their decisions. Which one is correct?
Both could be wrong, or right . . . depending.

God is the One who judges and who has or has not guided.

If we are obeying God, He knows this and He is deciding the guiding.

And the moral absolute has to do with if He really is the One guiding us or not. Plus, we do have some number of set rules about what to do or not to do. So, the absolute is subjective . . . to God . . . not to us.
 
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com7fy8

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I'll grant you that. There are rules which guide us. They aren't fixed to be obeyed in all circumstances. Hence...relative to the situation. And yes, it's you that decides. No-one else. Which again makes it relative.
The absolute for us with Jesus is that Jesus rules what we do. So, we do not decide on our own. Whatever He really guides us to do is morally absolutely right. And then, yes, there are certain rules which we consider to be objective.

But certain things are related to our attitude while we do them. There is morally absolute regulation against hatred, for example. So, anything done in hate is morally absolutely wrong, because it was done in hate.
 
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durangodawood

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I think a sense of absolute morality has been useful. And so thats why we've encouraged it over the eras.

But that doesnt require it being a real thing. And theres perfectly good explanations for the human moral sense aside from invoking things from a proposed inaccessible beyond.

Also, the most terrific being declaring right or wrong still sounds kind of arbitrary. It has a "because I said so" vibe to it.
 
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zippy2006

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I think a sense of absolute morality has been useful.
I don't think anyone who uses that word against their opponents knows what they mean by it. It usually means little more than, "teh bad thign."
 
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