Morality: trial and error

[Boomygrrl]

How does one become a moral person? Are they born that way? Is it through experiences in life, trial and error?
I believe both plays a part in morality.

Some sociopaths come from loving households and still turn out evil. Some very good people come from very unloving, mean parents and turn out great. I believe their living environment plays a role, but not always.

How much freewill do we really have in making decisions?
I tend to lean more towards believing we have freewill, but I know there are other factors involved: genetics, how one is raised, whether one has experienced traumatic situations, peer/family pressure, neighborhood/opportunities, poverty, etc.

Some people learn faster than others the consequences (both good and bad) of their behaviors. Some people are more empathic than others, in which they really care how their behaviors might effect others.

Now, taking this on to a religious discussion. Do you think God really expects perfection and is angry at us when we mess up? Do you think God judges us with such high standards that we all "fall short" of what he expects and are all deserving of Hell, in which we need his mercy?
If you believe the Genesis account, do you think Adam and Eve had enough life experience and perspective to be able to make a moral decision?


Boomygrrl

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

How does one become a moral person? Are they born that way? Is it through experiences in life, trial and error?

I don't believe you can be born moral. I think it is purely through trial and error.

I believe both plays a part in morality.

Some sociopaths come from loving households and still turn out evil. Some very good people come from very unloving, mean parents and turn out great. I believe their living environment plays a role, but not always.

I wouldn't consider a sociopath immoral if he did immoral actions. But that is just my opinion. I wouldn't factor mental illness into the equation at all.

How much freewill do we really have in making decisions?

Very limited amount.

I tend to lean more towards believing we have freewill, but I know there are other factors involved: genetics, how one is raised, whether one has experienced traumatic situations, peer/family pressure, neighborhood/opportunities, poverty, etc.

Those are all very big factors in what makes a person.

Some people learn faster than others the consequences (both good and bad) of their behaviors. Some people are more empathic than others, in which they really care how their behaviors might effect others.

I agree.

Now, taking this on to a religious discussion. Do you think God really expects perfection and is angry at us when we mess up? Do you think God judges us with such high standards that we all "fall short" of what he expects and are all deserving of Hell, in which we need his mercy?
If you believe the Genesis account, do you think Adam and Eve had enough life experience and perspective to be able to make a moral decision?

I dunno.




Boomygrrl[/QUOTE]

 

[]RiSeN[]

Look up moral or morality in the dictionary, its pretty accurate, although it doesnt give you its origin

 

[]RiSeN[]

One prohibitive command was given to Adam, that forbidding eating of or even touching the tree of knowledge of good and bad. God's test of man's obedience and devotion is notable for the respect it showed for man's dignity. Eating was a normal, proper, and Adam had been told to "eat to satisfaction" of what God had given him. But God tested Adam by restricting his eating of the fruit of this one tree, thus causing the eating of that fruit to symbolize that the eater comes to a knowledge that enables him to decide for himself what is "good" and what is "bad" for man. In the same way today we would sin by choosing for ourselves what WE think is good for us rather than what we KNOW God has told us. And even though Adam failed this test, as do we,we are still rewarded with John 3:16.

 

[]RiSeN[]

mor-al adj 1. good in character or conduct; virtuous according to civilized standards of right and wrong;just: a moral act, a moral man.2.capable of understanding right form wrong: a little baby is not a moral being.3.based on the principles of right conduct rather than law or custom.4.teaching a good lesson; having a good influence.

 

[beechy]

I'm not sure I understand the question completely. But I do think human behavior and thought is a complicated thing. Nature, nurture, biology, parents? I think it's unlikely that you can point to any one factor in explaining why people act, think, and feel the way they do. I do believe, however, that God knows the why's and what's of who you are, and in His perfect knowledge will be uniquely able to administer perfect judgment, and perfect justice.

Could your actions have been helped? Did you try your best? Should you be held responsible? Could you have done things differently? Do you think you sinned? You probably know. God knows for sure.

 

[Boomygrrl]

Do you believe that Christians in general are more moral than Jews? Do you believe Christians are more moral than atheists? How does linking belief in Jesus make one more moral? Where is the justice in eternal punishment? Is it retribution for our immoral acts? Remember, it seems it's who we know than what we do (if you believe that belief in Jesus is most important). Is it corrective, in order for us to learn from our mistakes? Remember, hell is supposed to be eternal, so how are we able to learn from our mistakes if we are stuck there?

I've always been curious about sociopathy. If someone is deficient in their thought processes, unable to emotionally attach to others/unable to empathize, and is very willing to do whatever it takes to please themselves even if it means hurting themselves or others, are they evil? I tend to think of sociopaths as evil. But are they, if they really are wired differently?


Boomygrrl

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Do you believe that Christians in general are more moral than Jews? Do you believe Christians are more moral than atheists?

Nope

How does linking belief in Jesus make one more moral?[/quote]

It doesn't. It is just a different set of moral beliefs.

Where is the justice in eternal punishment? Is it retribution for our immoral acts?

I don't believe in eternal punishment.

I've always been curious about sociopathy. If someone is deficient in their thought processes, unable to emotionally attach to others/unable to empathize, and is very willing to do whatever it takes to please themselves even if it means hurting themselves or others, are they evil? I tend to think of sociopaths as evil. But are they, if they really are wired differently?

I honestly don't believe they are evil. But then again, I don't believe in evil anyway. I believe that we do the best with what we are given. Not that I am defending their actions. I just don't think they can be held as accountable as everyone else. Sociopaths cannot really understand hurt and pain. They have no connection with humans. They know it is wrong to kill because they are told so. They are not the same as others who can reason it out and figure it out... to feel... to know why...

 

[beechy]

Do you believe that Christians in general are more moral than Jews? Do you believe Christians are more moral than atheists? How does linking belief in Jesus make one more moral? Where is the justice in eternal punishment? Is it retribution for our immoral acts? Remember, it seems it's who we know than what we do (if you believe that belief in Jesus is most important). Is it corrective, in order for us to learn from our mistakes? Remember, hell is supposed to be eternal, so how are we able to learn from our mistakes if we are stuck there?

The way I think of hell is not as a punishment, but as a place away from God. Someone explained to me once that God wants us to be with Him. But if you make it clear through your life that you reject Him and don't want to be with Him why, in death, would He then force you to be hang out with Him forever in heaven? So he doesn't. It just so happens that the alternative is hell (not God's place, but a place away from God) -- and hell just happens to suck.

I don't know how to answer the question, whether Christians are "more moral" than Jews. I'm not sure what you mean by "moral" here. Do you mean "right"? I guess a perfectly practicing Christian would be more "right" under Christian standards of morality, and a perfectly practicing Jew would be more "right' under Jewish standards of morality. Which is the "right" standard and where do they diverge? I don't know. Is Jesus the only way to salvation? According to Christian doctrine, yes. Why? Because the Bible says so. Is it what God says? I don't know.

I've always been curious about sociopathy. If someone is deficient in their thought processes, unable to emotionally attach to others/unable to empathize, and is very willing to do whatever it takes to please themselves even if it means hurting themselves or others, are they evil? I tend to think of sociopaths as evil. But are they, if they really are wired differently?

Don't know. When it comes to mental illness (which is still not really understood in the medical community) I'd have to defer to God. Only He knows what a given person is capable of, and therefore what they should be culpable for.

 

[Boomygrrl]

Is Hell only for atheists?
If Hell is separation from God, rather than eternal burning torture, what about people who sincerely try to follow God (such as Jews) but who are considered wrong (by Christian theology). Should they be separated from God, too?
How about the agnostic who is trying to understand if there is a God. They don't want to be separated from God if he's really true. That's me. If there is a God, I don't want to be separated from God. I'm actually try to seek him/her/it. Am I out of luck if I die before that happens?
For someone who knows there is a God but still rejects him, then Hell as a way to separate them from God could make sense. Not everybody neatly falls into the categories of "accepting God" and "rejecting God."

Boomygrrl

 

[Zaac]

How does one become a moral person? Are they born that way? Is it through experiences in life, trial and error?
I believe both plays a part in morality.

Some sociopaths come from loving households and still turn out evil. Some very good people come from very unloving, mean parents and turn out great. I believe their living environment plays a role, but not always.

How much freewill do we really have in making decisions?
I tend to lean more towards believing we have freewill, but I know there are other factors involved: genetics, how one is raised, whether one has experienced traumatic situations, peer/family pressure, neighborhood/opportunities, poverty, etc.

Some people learn faster than others the consequences (both good and bad) of their behaviors. Some people are more empathic than others, in which they really care how their behaviors might effect others.

Now, taking this on to a religious discussion. Do you think God really expects perfection and is angry at us when we mess up? Do you think God judges us with such high standards that we all "fall short" of what he expects and are all deserving of Hell, in which we need his mercy?
If you believe the Genesis account, do you think Adam and Eve had enough life experience and perspective to be able to make a moral decision?


Boomygrrl

There is NO morality outside of Jesus Christ. Without Him as the standard for morality, everyone's mores rest upon individual opinion. we are not born into Christ. We must be born again.

 

[robot24]

There is NO morality outside of Jesus Christ. Without Him as the standard for morality, everyone's mores rest upon individual opinion. we are not born into Christ. We must be born again.

this is your opinion, other religions other than christianity have their own morals as do the non-religious
this is a limited view of human morality

 

[Zaac]

this is your opinion, other religions other than christianity have their own morals as do the non-religious
this is a limited view of human morality

It's your opinion that it's opinion so why respond and create an endless loop?
What you think to be opinion will not change Jesus Christ from being the standard which by all will be judged.

So think it limited if you like. Truth is absolute and is not predicated upon being inclusive of everybody's need to have his own opinion.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Truth is absolute and is not predicated upon being inclusive of everybody's need to have his own opinion.[/QUOTE]

Wow. I mean wow. That statement is sooo good, its sexy.

 

[beechy]

Truth is absolute and is not predicated upon being inclusive of everybody's need to have his own opinion.

Including yours.

 

[elman]

There is NO morality outside of Jesus Christ. Without Him as the standard for morality, everyone's mores rest upon individual opinion. we are not born into Christ. We must be born again.

I think we are born conected to God, and kill our own souls with our own sin. Ezekiel 18. Everyone is born with the knowledge that we should love each other and the ability to love each other. Paul said the Gentiles not have the law are a law unto themselves. When we fail to love, it is sin and the consequeces of our sin is our death, spiritually. To be reconnected to God requires mercy and grace because we cannot love good enough to deserve eternal life with God.

 

[Spinrad]

It's a complex biochemical process that makes up a personality and determines that personality's ability to control itself in the face of complex situations. You can't point to any single factor and say "that is the cause of antisocial behavior".

 

[Boomygrrl]

There is NO morality outside of Jesus Christ. Without Him as the standard for morality, everyone's mores rest upon individual opinion. we are not born into Christ. We must be born again.

What do you mean? A Jew cannot be moral? Rather than individual opinion, how about societal influences?
What does morality inside of Jesus Christ mean?


Boomygrrl

 

[Boomygrrl]

It's a complex biochemical process that makes up a personality and determines that personality's ability to control itself in the face of complex situations. You can't point to any single factor and say "that is the cause of antisocial behavior".

I agree.

I have a problem with Christian reasoning, regarding this. Maybe some Christians can shed some light on this.

If morality is trial and error, why do Christians believe God has a strict "no sin" policy? If we are considered too imperfect to be in God's presence, without being "born again" or whatever, why did God bother? Knowing the majority of humans are not going to be Christian, what was the point?
We are influenced by many factors, it's not so simple as freewill. Does that mean we are not responsible for our actions? No, it doesn't. We have brains, we can think, but we mess up. That's what's great about us. We're not robots. I would not be able to relate to the "perfect person." I think it's great that we learn from trial and error. We are in the process of learning. Some learn faster than others, and some don't give a darn. Why is it considered bad that we mess up? I don't disown my dog for pooping on the living room floor. I don't hate someone who might be thoughtless and selfish at times. Why is God obsessed with moral behavior? Doesn't He/she/it understand human nature? Why not inspire us to be the best we can be, than using punishments and death as a price tag?


Boomygrrl

 

[]RiSeN[]

It's a complex biochemical process that makes up a personality and determines that personality's ability to control itself in the face of complex situations. You can't point to any single factor and say "that is the cause of antisocial behavior".

This is incorrect, look up the definition of "moral" in the dictionary. What you have discribed is instinct.