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Which raises the question of whether there is any objective morality, let alone how many...
... yes, there's that, and whether or not there actually is any absolute morality. Now you're getting it!
Good work, Valentine!
I had it since back in post #71 -- as you well know.
Good of you to remember.
There’s both subjective reasons and objective consequences to our moral choices, which is why morality is both subjective and objective. I think it’s extremely important to understand that.
Let me be very direct about what I am saying since you seem to not understand me.
God's objective morality is bigger than our objective morality
so God doesn't have to play by the same rules that we do.
Bigger? This makes morality subjective.
One of the things Atheists typically do not give Theists enough weight to is the Theology of how grand Theists actually see God.
God gave us, as fallen, imperfect, sinful creatures morality because He already knows we cannot operate on the same level as Himself. I don't know how much of the Gospels you have read or what you think of Jesus exactly, but consider this verse:
John 7:31 "Yet many of the people believed in him. They said, 'When the Christ appears, will he do more signs than this man has done?'"
The point is that the people were astonished at the signs and miracles that Jesus was doing. It became undeniable who he was to these people... because of the signs and miracles he did.
So what possibility do we have of matching the morality of God? The answer is that it's impossible for us. So you could say God's morality for us is simply a dumbed down version for us so we can understand it.
It's like saying God's morality is 3 Dimentional and our morality is 2 Dimentional. The two simply are not equal. That's what I am trying to say.
How do you know they should be part of scripture? Like we agreed, humans screw things up. We screw things up pretty quickly too. And God lets us.
I didn't say he never mentioned it. I'm talking about how people quote Him or Paul. Look at the effect Jesus' words have on people and the effect Paul's words have on people (where morality is concerned).
Later in this post you're going to mention that feelings are misleading, and that's my point.
But it gets complicated when God lets the humans He created make choices. God can desire that we act a certain way, but that doesn't cause acting differently to become the incorrect way to act.
Well it's either intrinsically bad (bad all on it's own for it's own sake) or it's bad because God says so. If it's bad because God says so, then its badness is assigned, not intrinsic to the thing itself.
...which means we have no choice but to judge God's actions based on our subjective 2-D morality, since we can't experience His subjective 3-D morality.
One of the things Atheists typically do not give Theists enough weight to is the Theology of how grand Theists actually see God.
God gave us, as fallen, imperfect, sinful creatures morality because He already knows we cannot operate on the same level as Himself. I don't know how much of the Gospels you have read or what you think of Jesus exactly, but consider this verse:
John 7:31 "Yet many of the people believed in him. They said, 'When the Christ appears, will he do more signs than this man has done?'"
The point is that the people were astonished at the signs and miracles that Jesus was doing. It became undeniable who he was to these people... because of the signs and miracles he did.
So what possibility do we have of matching the morality of God? The answer is that it's impossible for us. So you could say God's morality for us is simply a dumbed down version for us so we can understand it.
It's like saying God's morality is 3 Dimentional and our morality is 2 Dimentional. The two simply are not equal. That's what I am trying to say.
Like it or not, what you're saying is that morality is subjective.
No, I am saying there is a greater and lesser morality but this does not mean either of them are subjective to the other.
What do you mean by subjective morality? What is it that you think I mean by subjective morality? I'm unable to make sense of what you're saying because I can't think of a definition wherein your statements make any sense whatsoever.
When I say "subjective morality" I mean a system of morality in which an action would be considered moral in a certain circumstance, or in a certain time period, or if performed by a certain party, and yet the same action would be considered immoral in another circumstance, or in another time period, or if performed by someone else.
When you say that God's morality is different from ours, I assume this is to account for the fact that he used to kill children quite regularly but somehow did so in a morally justifiable way. Yet if any human being did the things God did, then such a human being would be committing immoral acts. This is subjective morality. Under what possible definition do you think I'm operating? How could the situation that I just described be anything but subjective morality?
Well, see? God lets us screw up even scripture.I know because God allows it to be part of scripture. Again it comes back to faith and trust.
Now that's not to say that some newer versions of the Bible are not suspect, some are, some have deviated away. I would always have an Old King James and either a New Kings James or other equal version. Plus the Greek or Hebrew can also be checked.
I'm not talking about a specific problem with anything Paul says. I'm saying that he motivates people to condemn sexual sin while Jesus motivates people to do good works.Maybe you could tell me what part of Paul's words you are having an issue with? Could you quote the actual scripture?
Let's use your painting analogy. Let's say I'm painting and I make a stroke in a place I didn't want to. I don't like it, and it makes my painting look different from how I want my painting to look. I may even say that it was a mistake. But, is there a correct place to make a stroke on a canvas? No, that would be silly.Sorry, you lost me there.
Which is where faith and trust come in.
If we trust God then we also trust his commands, we trust that he has our best interests at heart and that his commands are warnings to us. Like a parent who tells the toddler not to touch the hot stove. We are so far fallen that many of the dangers, especially the spiritual ones, we can't see.
If we do not trust that God has our best interests in mind, that his laws are arbitrary or pointless then we will be judging them based on what we feel.
There's no indication he went to the "good" afterlife either, which I presume is Abraham's bosom. The reality is that he was a pawn used to inflict pain on another person. That's immoral.
That's a good reminder for me since I have too many irons in the fire here. I'll keep your Spong quotes in mind.
Thanks for your in depth reply.... I will respond to some of it.....
Thanks I wasn't aware of that.... so were Jesus' and John the Baptist's circumcisions not done correctly?
My country is Australia which no longer has a death penalty. My examples were for working on the Sabbath (e.g. Numbers 15:32-36) and homosexual sex. Some Christians would say that God isn't against homosexual sex.
Yes that is the passage I quoted. But what if a nation did that during modern warfare? Then there is the commanded genocide of 6 ethnic groups including their animals (Deuteronomy 20:16-17)
Please provide evidence that the God of the Old Testament didn't approve of polygamy. Apparently Greeks and Romans were against polygamy and I think that is why it isn't present in the New Testament....
But I think the law handed down to Moses allowed divorce.... and that is what Christians normally follow rather than the changes to this that Jesus suggested.
As far as Adam and Eve goes, Eve was created out of one of Adam's ribs. He had many ribs so that implies he could have had many wives (especially if you consider all of the examples of Jewish polygamy)
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