Moral Relativism

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

This may be more of a rant than anything else, but I am just blown away sometimes by the level of moral relativism in heterodox churches!!! Churches are changing their doctrines to suit what society wants or desires. Homosexuality and abortion are now considered "not sin" by many prot. churches! If pedophilia or beastiality become more popular with society, then I suppose the heterodox will decide they're okay, too.

I've become upset about this because of a thread in GT about homosexual marriage. Just reading through many of the posts, I am just floored by what sorts of excuses people come up with to justify any lifestyle under the sun. One misguided soul said that God doesn't tell us how we should live our life. He just wants us to love everybody and help everyone feel better about however they want to live their life. Basically, I guess we should just forget about any concept of right or wrong, gather around in a circle and sing "Kumbaya, My Lord". I'm not denying we are suppose to love everyone, I agree whole-heartly with that. But there is a difference between loving people and justifying anything they want to do to make themselves feel good.

Yes, I know that I need to focus on my own sins and work out my own salvation. It just really bothers me to hear about this liberal, wishy-washy God who doesn't care how we live our life.

 

[Rilian]

The Church which is married to the Spirit of the Age will be a widow in the next.
-- Dean William Inge

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

This is another thing that brings the Orthodox and Catholic Churches together, there is no moral relativism whatsoever in any of our Churches, and thank God for that.

 

[Constantine]

This may be more of a rant than anything else, but I am just blown away sometimes by the level of moral relativism in heterodox churches!!! Churches are changing their doctrines to suit what society wants or desires. Homosexuality and abortion are now considered "not sin" by many prot. churches! If pedophilia or beastiality become more popular with society, then I suppose the heterodox will decide they're okay, too.

I've become upset about this because of a thread in GT about homosexual marriage. Just reading through many of the posts, I am just floored by what sorts of excuses people come up with to justify any lifestyle under the sun. One misguided soul said that God doesn't tell us how we should live our life. He just wants us to love everybody and help everyone feel better about however they want to live their life. Basically, I guess we should just forget about any concept of right or wrong, gather around in a circle and sing "Kumbaya, My Lord". I'm not denying we are suppose to love everyone, I agree whole-heartly with that. But there is a difference between loving people and justifying anything they want to do to make themselves feel good.

Yes, I know that I need to focus on my own sins and work out my own salvation. It just really bothers me to hear about this liberal, wishy-washy God who doesn't care how we live our life.

This could be one of the worst things a church could do.

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

The Church which is married to the Spirit of the Age will be a widow in the next.
-- Dean William Inge

I love this quote!!! One of the things I find most comforting about the EOC is that it has no interest in changing or compromising the Faith of the Apostles, regardless of what's going on in society!

 

[ufonium2]

Relativism is stupid. People say there are no absolutes, yet that statement is an absolute!

 

[Rilian]

Relativism is stupid.

I don't know why, but just that one line made me laugh.

 

[prodromos]

People say there are no absolutes, yet that statement is an absolute!

I'm reminded of the statement, "All generalisations are false, including this one".

 

[Reader Nilus]

I would remind people that moral relativism, we say is bad, which it is, but are we not guilty of such relativism when we wave the flags for war, for country and so forth? Are we not engaged in moral relativism when we excuse our wealth, as we ignore the poverty around us? Who of us lives the Sermon on the Mount, even though we are ordered to do so in order to be saved? Instead of pointing fingers we need to look at ourselves to see the source of such relativism.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I would remind people that moral relativism, we say is bad, which it is, but are we not guilty of such relativism when we wave the flags for war, for country and so forth?

Not necessarily. While the Orthodox Church is mostly passivist where politics is concerned, they do not condemn all wars. Unfortunately, they are sometimes necessary. I also don't see patriotism, as long as it is not extreme (or demonstrated in a way that makes our country more supreme than any other), as having anything to do with moral relativism.

Are we not engaged in moral relativism when we excuse our wealth, as we ignore the poverty around us?

I'm not sure if that fits with moral relativism either, but it is definitely greed---which is, of course, sin.

Who of us lives the Sermon on the Mount, even though we are ordered to do so in order to be saved?

This is very true, and something each of us needs to work on. I'm not saying we should take any focus of our own salvation. However, I think that when people are afraid or unwilling to discuss the moral decay around us, this too is a form of moral relativism. "Let's just mind our own business" is okay sometimes, but not always. I wonder how things were handled in Sodom or Gemorrah? I always did like that saying "Evil prospers when good men do nothing."

 

[Patristic]

One of my favorite verses from the Bible is Judges 21:25.

In those days there was no king in Israel and every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Moral Relativism isn't a modern problem because the Israelites had the same problem in their society over 3,000 years ago. It is also interesting to note that the period of the Judges was the least unstable and one of the most violent periods in Israel's history, so we can all see that this attitude or mindset has disastrous social consequences.

 

[Reader Nilus]

Speaking of wealth and poverty is something they did not do in Sodom, and one of the reasons it was condemned according to the Holy Prophet Ezekiel was that Sodom did not take care of the poor. As Dorthy Sayer asked, what happened to all of the other deadly sins besides lust, in our times? When moral folk talk morals they are talking sex, not war, not wealth and poverty, not spiritual pride, not greed and so forth. Is not trying to justify a war moral relativism? When we say the economic reality is that certain things happen which creates poverty for some and wealth for others and we agree, we are engaged in moral relativism, because as a Christian the poor person is just the same as the rich person, and to say well that is just the way it is, is not much different than the homosexual saying the same thing about his choice of partners.
An excellent book about all of this is:
Following Christ in a Consumer Society: The Spirituality of Cultural Resistance byJohn F. Kavanaugh. Kavanaugh shows the economics behind the divorce rates, abortions and all sorts of other ills. We may speak against all sorts of sins, but if we engage in the system that promotes them are we not just as guilty?
In America in the 50's we had Orthodox Bishops deported because they were Russians, and good golly gee they were the enemy! Yes flag waving will get one to the point that you do not recognize your brethren because somebody in some system says they are the enemy. As an Orthodox I am closer to some of our so called enemies such as the Serbs than I am to my own countrymen!
What I am trying to say morals go beyond sex, to the heart of this society which is economics and moral relativism reigns supreme there, and sexual relativism has not even come close to the amount of relativism that is ignored in the economic realm of Christian ethical teaching.
Jeff the Finn

 

[NewToLife]

Speaking of wealth and poverty is something they did not do in Sodom, and one of the reasons it was condemned according to the Holy Prophet Ezekiel was that Sodom did not take care of the poor. As Dorthy Sayer asked, what happened to all of the other deadly sins besides lust, in our times? When moral folk talk morals they are talking sex, not war, not wealth and poverty, not spiritual pride, not greed and so forth. Is not trying to justify a war moral relativism? When we say the economic reality is that certain things happen which creates poverty for some and wealth for others and we agree, we are engaged in moral relativism, because as a Christian the poor person is just the same as the rich person, and to say well that is just the way it is, is not much different than the homosexual saying the same thing about his choice of partners.
An excellent book about all of this is:
Following Christ in a Consumer Society: The Spirituality of Cultural Resistance byJohn F. Kavanaugh. Kavanaugh shows the economics behind the divorce rates, abortions and all sorts of other ills. We may speak against all sorts of sins, but if we engage in the system that promotes them are we not just as guilty?
In America in the 50's we had Orthodox Bishops deported because they were Russians, and good golly gee they were the enemy! Yes flag waving will get one to the point that you do not recognize your brethren because somebody in some system says they are the enemy. As an Orthodox I am closer to some of our so called enemies such as the Serbs than I am to my own countrymen!
What I am trying to say morals go beyond sex, to the heart of this society which is economics and moral relativism reigns supreme there, and sexual relativism has not even come close to the amount of relativism that is ignored in the economic realm of Christian ethical teaching.
Jeff the Finn

Great post!!! If I could rep you i would but Apparently I must spread it around first.

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

We may speak against all sorts of sins, but if we engage in the system that promotes them are we not just as guilty?

​

Absolutely. That is why we should not vote for politicians who promote moral decay (gay marriage and abortion) OR greed (neglecting the poor).​

 

[countrymousenc]

I would remind people that moral relativism, we say is bad, which it is, but are we not guilty of such relativism when we wave the flags for war, for country and so forth? Are we not engaged in moral relativism when we excuse our wealth, as we ignore the poverty around us? Who of us lives the Sermon on the Mount, even though we are ordered to do so in order to be saved? Instead of pointing fingers we need to look at ourselves to see the source of such relativism.
Jeff the Finn

Just my 2 cents...

War is always horrible, but sometimes it is necessary to go to the defense of a country that is being attacked, or to defend one's own country. Bullying isn't only done on an individual or gang level. (That doesn't mean I've decided one way or another about our current effort in Iraq, mind you.) Sometimes the bully is an Adolf Hitler in charge of a military force.

Yes, we are engaged in relativism when we ignore poverty around us from our own comfortable homes, and if we do it long enough, it might come back to bite us.

We always need to look to ourselves, but we also need to be aware of what's going on around us. The timing of this relativistic spirit pervading the evangelical churches in the U.S. is interesting, in that it has been happening as Orthodoxy has been becoming more and more available. Many of us have come to Orthodoxy as we have seen the lifeboats sinking while some of the passengers are drilling more holes! We want so badly to save the others before the boats go under.

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Just my 2 cents...

War is always horrible, but sometimes it is necessary to go to the defense of a country that is being attacked, or to defend one's own country. Bullying isn't only done on an individual or gang level. (That doesn't mean I've decided one way or another about our current effort in Iraq, mind you.) Sometimes the bully is an Adolf Hitler in charge of a military force.

Yes, we are engaged in relativism when we ignore poverty around us from our own comfortable homes, and if we do it long enough, it might come back to bite us.

We always need to look to ourselves, but we also need to be aware of what's going on around us. The timing of this relativistic spirit pervading the evangelical churches in the U.S. is interesting, in that it has been happening as Orthodoxy has been becoming more and more available. Many of us have come to Orthodoxy as we have seen the lifeboats sinking while some of the passengers are drilling more holes! We want so badly to save the others before the boats go under.

Very well put.

 

[Reader Nilus]

Orthodoxy demands that you examine yourselves in the light of the Gospel, not the American ideals of happiness. That means the very foundation of the economic system which is grab all the gusto you can is also challenged. Orthodoxy will always be an alien in this culture as long as we are true to the Faith.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Orthodoxy demands that you examine yourselves in the light of the Gospel, not the American ideals of happiness. That means the very foundation of the economic system which is grab all the gusto you can is also challenged. Orthodoxy will always be an alien in this culture as long as we are true to the Faith.
Jeff the Finn

This is very true.

 

[Oblio]

I also don't see patriotism, as long as it is not extreme (or demonstrated in a way that makes our country more supreme than any other), as having anything to do with moral relativism.

As an example of extreme, those Power of Pride bumper stickers

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Orthodoxy demands that you examine yourselves in the light of the Gospel, not the American ideals of happiness. That means the very foundation of the economic system which is grab all the gusto you can is also challenged. Orthodoxy will always be an alien in this culture as long as we are true to the Faith.
Jeff the Finn

On this, we agree.

Oblio, believe it or not, I have never seen one of those "Power of Pride" stickers. What is it suppose to mean, anyway?