Moral Absolute?

[joebudda]

The Bible says that God is a jealous God.

How is this an example of a moral absolute of which man is supposed to follow?

[bible]Exodus 20:5[/bible]

 

[Abbadon]

What?

 

[joebudda]

What?

If god is perfect and good and he is also a jealous god. Then does that mean we should strive to be as jealous as possible in order to be good, therefore closer to god?

 

[Velo Princesse]

interesting. if god is good and his way is perfect, then jealousy and vengefulness are also good and perfect.

 

[joebudda]

interesting. if god is good and his way is perfect, then jealousy and vengefulness are also good and perfect.

If god is the moral authority then it would seem to be so. We should all strive to be more jealous and vengeful if we were using god as our moral authority.

 

[Velo Princesse]

If god is the moral authority then it would seem to be so. We should all strive to be more jealous and vengeful if we were using god as our moral authority.

Okay. I'll start!

I sure do wish someone would respond to this... although I am so enjoying our mutual admiration society!

 

[mepalmer3]

If god is perfect and good and he is also a jealous god. Then does that mean we should strive to be as jealous as possible in order to be good, therefore closer to god?

If we take god as some sort of lesser god, more like a person who is somewhat arbitrary with his rules, punishments, and love towards people (like perhaps the greek gods in mythology), then becoming jealous might make more sense. But there would be no reason to think just because that arbitrary god did something that we ought to do it too since he isn't the source of morality, rather we'd do it because of his lightning bolt that would strike us down.

But if we're speaking of the christian God, then the idea of God is incredibly different. If God is perfectly loving, completely logical, never changing, and so on... then if God is jealous of our turning away from him, then in a sense with all his desire He wants us to willfully turn back to him. Now back to the idea of if god is rather arbitrary (or think of just a regular person), then if I am jealous and want somebody to love me, ok maybe it's a neat thing, but I'm not exactly superman here so why would I want someone to worship me? But in God's case, being pure goodness, wanting someone to willfully love him is the same as wanting someone to willfully want to be loving, truthful, logical, to use intelligence, to desire life.

So taken that from it's proper context, we too should want everyone to desire to turn back to God (not to take the focus and desire that people turn to ourselves). So yes we can learn that it's an absolute moral, perhaps the most foundational one, that people ought to turn their lives towards God.

 

[Velo Princesse]

If the words used in the Bible to describe god are not nearly efficient and don't even truely mean what we think they mean, they are meaningless. That would mean that all of the scripture used to describe god's character, even the ones that talk about him being loving and kind, are meaninless because those words in 'god talk' don't mean what we think they mean. That leaves you with a book filled with gibberish and the unknowable god of agnostism.

 

[mepalmer3]

If the words used in the Bible to describe god are not nearly efficient and don't even truely mean what we think they mean, they are meaningless. That would mean that all of the scripture used to describe god's character, even the ones that talk about him being loving and kind, are meaninless because those words in 'god talk' don't mean what we think they mean. That leaves you with a book filled with gibberish and the unknowable god of agnostism.

I can appreciate the frustration people feel in the difficulty in critically understanding literature. In some senses the folks who don't really study the scriptures, ancient literature in general, and so on are at a real disadvantage with being able to glean meaning from the passages. Is it right that 2 conflicting interpretations can be correct about a verse in the bible? No... that would be illogical.

Although what I said made a great deal of sense and is a very rational explanation of that verse's meaning. All I did was spend an extra few minutes thinking about what is being said rather than reading it and immediately jumping to a conclusion. This OP suggests that if someone is our model, then we should imitate them. So if Bob were my hero and I see him kiss his wife, then I should follow his lead and kiss Bob's wife. That's very poor reasoning. Instead we should step back, look at the motives, and understand the situation. God being perfect would want everyone to also be perfect. This being one of the commandments, God is saying I am perfect, place ME which is pure perfection, love, reason, and so on as the foremost of your desires.

 

[joebudda]

I can appreciate the frustration people feel in the difficulty in critically understanding literature. In some senses the folks who don't really study the scriptures, ancient literature in general, and so on are at a real disadvantage with being able to glean meaning from the passages. Is it right that 2 conflicting interpretations can be correct about a verse in the bible? No... that would be illogical.

Although what I said made a great deal of sense and is a very rational explanation of that verse's meaning. All I did was spend an extra few minutes thinking about what is being said rather than reading it and immediately jumping to a conclusion. This OP suggests that if someone is our model, then we should imitate them. So if Bob were my hero and I see him kiss his wife, then I should follow his lead and kiss Bob's wife. That's very poor reasoning. Instead we should step back, look at the motives, and understand the situation. God being perfect would want everyone to also be perfect. This being one of the commandments, God is saying I am perfect, place ME which is pure perfection, love, reason, and so on as the foremost of your desires.

So if god is perfect and he wants us to be perfect, though to be perfect we shouldn’t use all of god attributes as a guideline for our perfection because what makes god perfect doesn’t make us perfect according to god.

Okay now I am really confused.

 

[mepalmer3]

So if god is perfect and he wants us to be perfect, though to be perfect we shouldn’t use all of god attributes as a guideline for our perfection because what makes god perfect doesn’t make us perfect according to god.

Okay now I am really confused.

Well... it can be a bit confusing. I suppose that's why there are full degrees on the subject. And I certainly wouldn't want to say that religious folks should get away with trying to pretend like nothing is what it seems in their scriptures. But I do think there is some legitimate reasoning that can be applied to what is being said here, and a very rational explanation/understanding can be realized by believer and non-believer alike.

To your statement... if God says he is perfect, and God says we ought to be like him, then should we also say that we are perfect and that others should be like us? I think the answer is no, of course not. His statement was that he is perfect and he is the one to be followed.

One thing I think is helpful when trying to understand the meaning of a passage is to look at a few different translations. Some are better than others. The translations aren't themselves usually held as being infallible in their translations, rather the original hebrew/greek are believed by some to be infallible. So we often run into words or phrases that just didn't seem to get translated in the best possible way. And as such it's a bit more confusing. Also, it helps to understand the context of the chapter, the context of those times, the location being discussed or where it was written, and the audience. I also reservedly like to read a few commentaries on the passage if I can get my hands on them. Having done all of those things it makes interpretation a lot easier and generally more accurate I believe.

matthew

 

[JBrian]

God is jealous in a holy way. He is jealous for what is His . . . His people. It is not wrong to be jealous for what it yours. He also wants the good of His people.

People are sinning when they are jealous because they are jealous about something that is not theirs, or do not want the ultimate good as God does. -

 

[ChristianCenturion]

And here I thought mepalmer3 did an EXCELLENT job in explaining it with patience.

joebudda: sure if you have perfect wisdom, love, faithfulness, righteousness, omniscience, omnipotence, self-control, etc. then yes, it will be OK for you to have jealousy among those balancing traits... until then, try to work on the 'others' first.

 

[Spyr]

What I think is being overlooked is the second part of the verse quoted in the first post:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

That explanation about god being perfect and he deserves having us worship him is all well and good but is it fair that he's punishing the children of the fathers? It's not taking jealousy out of context when in the same verse god takes out his jealousy on later generations.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

What I think is being overlooked is the second part of the verse quoted in the first post:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

That explanation about god being perfect and he deserves having us worship him is all well and good but is it fair that he's punishing the children of the fathers? It's not taking jealousy out of context when in the same verse god takes out his jealousy on later generations.

That is a generalized Truth - similar to what is found in Proverbs.
Look again in light of it being that traditions or behavior is passed on to the children by learned behavior. You have to take it into context of God honors repentance and the individual's choice to accept Him for the balanced understanding.

 

[Spyr]

That is a generalized Truth - similar to what is found in Proverbs.
Look again in light of it being that traditions or behavior is passed on to the children by learned behavior. You have to take it into context of God honors repentance and the individual's choice to accept Him for the balanced understanding.

I don't pretend to be an expert when it comes to the bible but there is no shortage of examples of god punishing children for their father's sins. Adam and Eve is the classic example. I applaud you for giving a plausible answer to the queery but I have to ask: have you considered the possibility that god meant what was said and that he does succumb not only to jealousy but also to error (when he repented for creating man before the flood)or to anger (sodom and gommorah)?

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I don't pretend to be an expert when it comes to the bible but there is no shortage of examples of god punishing children for their father's sins. Adam and Eve is the classic example. I applaud you for giving a plausible answer to the queery but I have to ask: have you considered the possibility that god meant what was said and that he does succumb not only to jealousy but also to error (when he repented for creating man before the flood)or to anger (sodom and gommorah)?

The questions have been asked and answered in my faith. I find God to be Perfect and faithful - so no, I would not agree with your assertion in light of what I have tested and found to be true. That is why it is referred of the believer as being a witness.

 

[Spyr]

The questions have been asked and answered in my faith. I find God to be Perfect and faithful - so no, I would not agree with your assertion in light of what I have tested and found to be true. That is why it is referred of the believer as being a witness.

Then how would you justify god punishing children for their father's mistakes? What logic is there in that? What right? Please be assured I'm not attacking you personally, I just find the whole concept of religion, christianity in general to be so frustrating and contradicting.

 

[mepalmer3]

What I think is being overlooked is the second part of the verse quoted in the first post:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

That explanation about god being perfect and he deserves having us worship him is all well and good but is it fair that he's punishing the children of the fathers? It's not taking jealousy out of context when in the same verse god takes out his jealousy on later generations.

I don't think the 2nd part of the verse had been asked for clarification -- which is why I wouldn't have addressed it yet. But let's discuss it now since you brought it up.

First of all we can agree that God is that the iniquity belongs to the fathers, right? "iniquity of the fathers"... so Some people sin and God (if he is perfect) must address that wronfgul behavior because it hurts them and hurts the people around. We all know we are influenced by people, especially our parents. So in effect stuff my parents struggle with get taught to me. I can freely break the chain, but it's difficult. This verse gets interpreted by most people as I know as just being a high probability that the children are going to grow up in their parents footsteps and commit the same sins that their parents did and taught them. And God must address the issue in the children as well.

And as far as the jealousy part goes -- I think/hope I already clarified that if you truly are perfect, then you do in fact want everyone to come back to you and also be perfect. If God didn't desire people to come back to him and put him above all things, then I would say he really isn't all that great and he realizes that he's just as broken as we are. But God heavily stresses how important it is for people to put their focus on Him.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Then how would you justify god punishing children for their father's mistakes? What logic is there in that? What right? Please be assured I'm not attacking you personally, I just find the whole concept of religion, christianity in general to be so frustrating and contradicting.

I'll go the route of Jesus and try to spell it out in a more tangible way.
A farmer goes out to the garden and sees what he planted along with weeds. He pulls up the weeds because they do not suit His purpose and are of no good. He is also careful not to leave young weeds remain and also careful not to haphazardly spread the weed's seed around while handling the removal.
Now this analogy is flawed, but it does convey what you are asking. The weed AND the offspring of that weed will not be beneficial to the farmer. This is in the light that God is Perfect in His ability to determine what is what and that He is Perfect in His judgment. If you do not accept that, then of course you will have problems understanding the rest.