Monogamy

[EnemyPartyII]

I done all I could do as a wife. In the end I gave him his respect , privacy and freedom . And he compromised our marriage, my son, our family. His happiness , was his will, not God's.

Chie, if you need to talk about this, I'm more than happy to listen to you. If you would like to start a new thread or move it to PM, I'll give you all the time to listen that I can...

 

[ReformedChapin]

So... you're suggesting I'm not a real Christian because my interpretation and understanding of the human relationship to God differs to your own?I fully accept what the Bible teaches. However it seems that it teaches you something different to what it teaches me.

According to the rules of this website we aren't allowed to answer this question. Read the bible ( by that I mean objectively) and you will see what she means by a real Christian.

But again, I'd suggest that NEITHER of our understanding is 100% accurate, nor that neither of our positions about it had nothing to teach the other.

Although I must admit that your insistence that you have a better grip on what the Bible means than I do, and that you are a "better" Christian than me as a result IS frustrating

Again, because no one has 100% understanding of the bible that doesn't imply that others don't have a better understanding. According to your position everyones interpretation of the bible is valid...YOU ARE WRONG. The bible has a rich history of people who hold the historic view of Christianity and although they don't agree with all the issues they agree with the essentials.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

According to your position everyones interpretation of the bible is valid...

More or less.

YOU ARE WRONG

No I'm not.

The bible has a rich history of people who hold the historic view of Christianity

Do you mean that the Bible should be considered historical textbook? Well, the Bible also has an equally rich history of people who inderstand that much of it is alegorical.

and although they don't agree with all the issues they agree with the essentials.

Really? and who gets to decide what the essentials are?

 

[Nadiine]

So... you're suggesting I'm not a real Christian because my interpretation and understanding of the human relationship to God differs to your own?I fully accept what the Bible teaches. However it seems that it teaches you something different to what it teaches me.

First off, CF rules don't allow me to say that and you know it, so please don't ask it anymore.

But again, I'd suggest that NEITHER of our understanding is 100% accurate, nor that neither of our positions about it had nothing to teach the other

Being 100% accurate isn't required by the Bible - or God. HAVING THE RIGHT GOD AND BELIEVING WHAT HE OPENLY TEACHES IN THAT WORD IS REQUIRED.
How can one claim to know & follow Jesus Christ when denying the very central things He teaches about salvation and who He is.

Understanding and DENYING are 2 separate meanings. I can be ignorant of some minor doctrinal truths but denying a simple doctrine that's clear is another matter entirely. One isn't knowing and one is rejecting what's there.

And let's not forget that those of the same Spirit of God WILL accept what is central to knowing [the true] God and His requirements. They'll have the same things in common - otherwise, a pagan can claim the same God as a Christian & a Christian is forced to admit the pagan is Christian as well.
Those worshipping a Hindu god can be Christian if they worship the Christian God too...
Same with agnostics or anyone else that rejects what the bible teaches plainly yet accepts other things from it & claims they know God.
ie. NOONE CAN CLAIM ANYONE IS OR ISN'T A CHRISTIAN, AND THERE'S NO DEFINITION OF ONE THAT EXISTS. Further, you can't know who's of God by "fruit" - it's all up to US in what we think.
(which is why the bible's authority is so heavily fought today)

You would no more know what a Christian is than I would if this is correct.

I don't see how it coincides with scripture teachings about what pleases God & how to spot what is false.
IF YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT'S RIGHT, YOU ALSO CAN'T KNOW WHAT'S WRONG. Everyone is right if you can't claim what truth is.
This doesn't work with the Bible - the Bible has to be rejected as truth to promote this worldview imo.

Although I must admit that your insistence that you have a better grip on what the Bible means than I do, and that you are a "better" Christian than me as a result IS frustrating

No more frustrating than I find your insistance that you can believe whatever you want in your own interpretations and debate against what's written in the Bible...

Can 2 opposites both be true in the same way? Can you be right AND me be right at the same time about your understanding about the bible?
Can the Bible both NOT be 100% true and be 100% true?
NO. So then, one of us is wrong.

You cannot claim relative/subjective truth with God or the Bible becuz in doing so, you are violating the law of non contradiction.
We can't both be right and the Bible doesn't teach anywhere that "whatever you believe makes it true for you".
If that's what you believe Christianity is, then please find me THAT passage & quote it here.

 

[Nadiine]

More or less.
No I'm not.
Do you mean that the Bible should be considered historical textbook? Well, the Bible also has an equally rich history of people who inderstand that much of it is alegorical.Really? and who gets to decide what the essentials are?

Um, how do YOU KNOW the bible is open to anyone's interpretations?? You are making an emphatic statement of fact that you don't even know - since you also don't know 100% of everything in the Bible...
How do YOU know God won't judge you as wrong? You don't.

You have to EQUALLY be open to others being right in their own interpretations as well! You want your cake and eat it too - with all the icing.

You want to claim NONE of us can know the truth about God or understand the bible all the same, but that you're correct in denying our beliefs about it.
If you truly believed what you claim, you would be able to hold NO beliefs as TRUTH for yourself or argue against ours becuz you can never know if they're true; either way when you have nothing sure to base them on.

To claim no one can know the truths it's teachings is saying that none of the authors had meaning or intent to relay anything definite when they wrote.

It seems to me that you want to have it both ways. Essentially, you cannot stand up for your beliefs, becuz you can't know if yours is RIGHT and you also can't know if ours is WRONG
So why do you even bother debating when you have zero foundation for either position?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You want to claim NONE of us can know the truth about God or understand the bible all the same, but that you're correct in denying our beliefs about it.
If you truly believed what you claim, you would be able to hold NO beliefs as TRUTH for yourself or argue against ours becuz you can never know if they're true; either way when you have nothing sure to base them on.

I don't think I've ever argued against your beliefs. I've asked you to explain away certain contradictions your understanding of the Bible seem to imply, which you continually take as a personal attack and refuse to respond to... But please stop insisting that a person who asks you questions you are uncomfortable considering is necesarily attacking you, or anyone for that matter.

All I'm interested in "attacking", is closed mindedness, and possibly Biblical literalism

 

[Nadiine]

I don't think I've ever argued against your beliefs. I've asked you to explain away certain contradictions your understanding of the Bible seem to imply, which you continually take as a personal attack and refuse to respond to... But please stop insisting that a person who asks you questions you are uncomfortable considering is necesarily attacking you, or anyone for that matter.

All I'm interested in "attacking", is closed mindedness, and possibly Biblical literalism

How do you KNOW it's not literal?? & what's the POINT? If none of us can ultimately KNOW God's truth... then why ask me defend ANY of it when none of us can know? And you can't know if my "closeminded views" are wrong either for that matter.
Fight what? & why when you have no basis for foundation to KNOW anything.

It seems rather futile doesn't it? You have NOTHING to base your assessments on, and neither do I (according to you) -
It's all personal interpretation; why would you care if it even contradicted itself? (which by the way, I believe your non-literal worldview contradicts very much of written scripture).

It makes no sense if there's no foundation of any truth to KNOW anything by, to argue either side, does it? Or for you to care if I'm closedminded. I'm closedminded to YOUR interpretation of what closed means, I'm not closed to truths.

The whole meaning of scripture itself refutes the fruition of your worldview - which boils down to "live & let live". It CLAIMS truth and absolutes and a coming judgment for those who reject Christ and His Words.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

What's the POINT tho? If none of us can ultimately KNOW God's truth... then why ask me defend ANY of it when none of us can know?

Because even though we can never KNOW, we CAN use our logic and interpretation of scripture to provide support for our point of view... and although we can never know the percentage correctness of our individual POV (pre-mortem anyway) it certainly doesn't mean that our POV is not valid, or that we should do our best to clearly explain it to others interested to learn

It seems rather futile doesn't it? You have NOTHING to base your assessments on, and neither do I (according to you) -

If you think this is what I'm saying, you miss my point entirely... we most certainly DO have something to base our assesments on... logic, life experience, spirituality, guidance from those we respect...

Live & let live; who cares.

Which is the concentrated version of the entirety of my position when it comes to other people.. I don't believe in forcing my view onto anyone else, or trying to stop anyone from doing what they want to do (assuming it doesn;'t hurt me or mine) I think "live and let live" is a wonderful philosophy. And before you say "so why are you here trying to convince people..."We both come here voluntarily to discuss such issues, so you have given an implied consent for me to tell you about my POV. I wouldn't hassle strangers in the street...

The whole meaning of scripture itself refutes the fruition of your worldview. It CLAIMS truth and absolutes.

*sigh* maybe you need to read what I've already written... I believe there ARE truths and absolutes... however there is no way to be 100% sure that we, as flawed humans percieve to be those truths and absolutes, are actually the REAL truths or absolutes, or that our understanding of them is the correct one.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try our very best to understand them as best we are able

 

[Nadiine]

Because even though we can never KNOW, we CAN use our logic and interpretation of scripture to provide support for our point of view... and although we can never know the percentage correctness of our individual POV (pre-mortem anyway) it certainly doesn't mean that our POV is not valid, or that we should do our best to clearly explain it to others interested to learn

Learn, BUT NEVER BE ABLE TO KNOW FOR SURE?

If you read your worldview closely, you'll see that it leaves everyone helpless and hopeless to KNOWING anything as a fact when it comes to God and His truth.

If you think this is what I'm saying, you miss my point entirely... we most certainly DO have something to base our assesments on... logic, life experience, spirituality, guidance from those we respect...

And it's my claim that the Bible meets each one of those methods of assessement!
It HAS met the burden of proof and is supported by each.

Which is the concentrated version of the entirety of my position when it comes to other people.. I don't believe in forcing my view onto anyone else, or trying to stop anyone from doing what they want to do (assuming it doesn;'t hurt me or mine) I think "live and let live" is a wonderful philosophy.

Jesus didn't think so, He said "I came not for the righteous, BUT TO BRING SINNERS TO REPENTANCE".

Even Jesus didn't come to let people "live & let live". He also said this:

Mat. 10:
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.​

35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.​

Your claims don't seem to agree with these scriptures. You're asking me to accept what YOU say over my Bible's eyewitness testimony from Jesus Himself. Do you think I should let go of what my bible says to agree with you instead?

Jesus' entire ministry was to teach that it's not about "live and let live", BUT REPENT AND BE SAVED.

And before you say "so why are you here trying to convince people..."We both come here voluntarily to discuss such issues, so you have given an implied consent for me to tell you about my POV.

It's still futile if none of us can KNOW what truth of God is - if it's only people's interpretations of it.
The source of worldview still makes it pointless when you only argue against another's intepretation that can't ultimately be known by anyone.

I wouldn't hassle strangers in the street...*sigh* maybe you need to read what I've already written...

I never assumed you would

I believe there ARE truths and absolutes... however there is no way to be 100% sure that we, as flawed humans percieve to be those truths and absolutes, are actually the REAL truths or absolutes, or that our understanding of them is the correct one.

EXACTLY! Errgo my previous posts. A HUMAN CANNOT KNOW WHAT TRUTH IS.
I go right back to my previous posts & ask the same Q's all over again.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try our very best to understand them as best we are able

Why? So someone like you (with equal inability to KNOW anything is spiritually true) can come by and challenge them all?
And still never be able to claim to KNOW God's truth?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Learn, BUT NEVER BE ABLE TO KNOW FOR SURE?

Pretty much. Sorry, just part of the human condition. You don't like it? Take it up with God, he made the rules. Or so I believe...

If you read your worldview closely, you'll see that it leaves everyone helpless and hopeless to KNOWING anything as a fact when it comes to God and His truth.

Why? I'm extremely HopeFUL... even though we can never know the Truth for SURE... I DO know that I have done my best to understand it, and my best to live a good life.

And it's my claim that the Bible meets each one of those methods of assessement!
It HAS met the burden of proof and is supported by each.

Has it? So... you can give me a purely logic reason to consider polygamy or homosexuality wrong can you?

Jesus didn't think so, He said "I came not for the righteous, BUT TO BRING SINNERS TO REPENTANCE".

Even Jesus didn't come to let people "live & let live". He also said this:

Mat. 10:
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ​

35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
​

Again, what YOU claim and what the Bible claims of Christ are not the same. You're asking me to accept what yOU say over my Bible's eyewitness testimony from Jesus Himself!
Do you think I should let go of what my bible says to agree with you?

Jesus' entire ministry was to teach that it's not about "live and let live", BUT REPENT AND BE SAVED.

Amazing that the whole "judge not lest ye be judged" and "do unto others as you would do unto yourself" bits don't seem to rate so highly in your view of Christ's quotable quotes

EXACTLY! Errgo my previous posts. A HUMAN CANNOT KNOW WHAT TRUTH IS.
I go right back to my previous posts & ask the same Q's all over again.

And I'll answer as best I can... no... a human Can'T KNOW the truth... a human CAN, however, do the best he can to TRY to understand the truth, and live by the teachings he interprets from his understanding of the truth

Why? So someone like you (with equal inability to KNOW anything is spiritually true) can come by and challenge them all?
And still never be able to claim to KNOW God's truth?

If I ask you questions, one of two things can happen... either, you answer it to your satisfaction, and feel more assured that you ar on the right track, OR, my question will lead you to the possibility that you hve not got all the answers regarding a specific issue, and encourage you to meditate on the matter until you have a more complete understanding.

Neither of these possibilities are bad things, are they?

 

[Nadiine]

CF rules dissallow me to continue this discussion properly and in depth, so I'm done with it here.
Your words speak for themselves and I fully disagree with them.

 

[Nadiine]

Amazing that the whole "judge not lest ye be judged" and "do unto others as you would do unto yourself" bits don't seem to rate so highly in your view of Christ's quotable quotes

One thing I forgot to point out before I exit this discussion entirely,

THE VERSES I QUOTED EXIST and must be dealt with. They dont' NULLIFY and DISCREDIT the ones you embrace. He said ALL these things, not the assorted cherry picked favorites you would like to hold onto & discard the rest.

Also, if you took the time to Read the "judge not lest you be judged" verses, you'de see they don't teach us not to judge, but not to be GUILTY of the same things we're judging another for.
People LOVE to quote that without reading the following verses in their context.
Jesus also taught us TO JUDGE!

John 7:24
"Do not judge according to appearance,
but judge with righteous judgment."​

The same writers who wrote YOUR verses, wrote the rest of them. The Bible isn't a little buffet of food that we pick off our favorites from the cart and ignore the rest that we don't like as much or don't seem to make as much sense.​

What I quoted is what Jesus claimed was His mission - not to leave people the way they were (live & let live), but to radically change them to salvation - and that choosing Christ would COST US alot; even our lives and families and material wealth.​

 

[david_x]

"The Bible SEZ!" Does not count as a logical reason, by itself.

Ah yes. The one who created, well everything should be the last person we consult.

 

[livingword26]

Learn, BUT NEVER BE ABLE TO KNOW FOR SURE?

Pretty much. Sorry, just part of the human condition. You don't like it? Take it up with God, he made the rules.

The truth no only can be know, but it must be known. Notice how it is known:

John 8:30-32
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth , and the truth shall make you free.
KJV

Of course without the guidence of God and the desire to let go of the false and accept the truth, it will remain hidden.

2 Tim 3:1-7
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth .KJV

 

[LaceyAnnMarie]

I think reguardless if it would be ok to have more then one wife... I would lots of issues allowing my hubby to do this... I'd be jealous, which would be a sin.... Think it would just cause to many problems...hehe well not for him I'm sure!

 

[Nadiine]

I think reguardless if it would be ok to have more then one wife... I would lots of issues allowing my hubby to do this... I'd be jealous, which would be a sin.... Think it would just cause to many problems...hehe well not for him I'm sure!

I know I'd have jealousy problems! Before I was living for the Lord I had a boyfriend that I found out had cheated on me - even then the feeling was nauseating.
I can't imagine how I'd feel if the women were in the same household with me and he was showing them affection in front of my face.

But I'm not sure that jealousy over that would be sinful? The Bible says that God is jealous - and that there is a "Godly jealously"... if the husband is yours & you are spouses, I would think that type of jealousy isn't the wrong kind.
I think maybe you SHOULD feel some jealousy becuz he IS your mate.???
That's a good avenue to explore on this topic.

 

[Chie]

I think reguardless if it would be ok to have more then one wife... I would lots of issues allowing my hubby to do this... I'd be jealous, which would be a sin.... Think it would just cause to many problems...hehe well not for him I'm sure!

Just as our passion and affections are to be to God alone , the marriage is in a sense is the physical flip side to our spiritual relationship with God. Righteous jealously consist of intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness and vigilant in guarding a possession. This is God's righteous jealously towards his children, his church. Same as what God yoked together, man and woman as one flesh, in the unity of marriage. All our passion and affections are to be to one another alone. Same within a marriage it is harmful to share what is rightly within the unity of marriage , we are not to share what is rightly God's, in both if we do , we lack the benefits of the blessings and love.
Welcome to CF

 

[Nadiine]

Just as our passion and affections are to be to God alone , the marriage is in a sense is the physical flip side to our spiritual relationship with God. Righteous jealously consist of intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness and vigilant in guarding a possession. This is God's righteous jealously towards his children, his church. Same as what God yoked together, man and woman as one flesh, in the unity of marriage. All our passion and affections are to be to one another alone. Same within a marriage it is harmful to share what is rightly within the unity of marriage , we are not to share what is rightly God's, in both if we do , we lack the benefits of the blessings and love.
Welcome to CF

This is what I referred to before in what I think is "spiritual adultery". We are the Lord's bride - and He's jealous for us with a Godly jealousy.
When Israel went after other gods, He was jealous and angry.
So I think we should be jealous towards our mate who we become ONE with. It's a form of spiritual adultery imo if you bring others into the relationship.

Altho, I guess one could argue that the bride of Christ consists of MILLIONS of people within it. (opens can of worms)

 

[Chie]

This is what I referred to before in what I think is "spiritual adultery". We are the Lord's bride - and He's jealous for us with a Godly jealousy.
When Israel went after other gods, He was jealous and angry.
So I think we should be jealous towards our mate who we become ONE with. It's a form of spiritual adultery imo if you bring others into the relationship.

Altho, I guess one could argue that the bride of Christ consists of MILLIONS of people within it. (opens can of worms)

I agree with you.
And yes there will be those that will use the symbolic "bride","body" to further their logic in their understanding. But we are not carnal, but spiritual , same as the Bride, and the One body , which is the church.

 

[david_x]

Monogamy is from a time when there were far fewer men then women, it made sence. We don't need it anymore so we push it away. We don't want to harden any hearts either, so when in rome...