Monogamy

[EnemyPartyII]

Both sides who oppose one another cannot be right - either one is wrong, or BOTH are wrong & have the wrong God altogether.

I don't think any one person or group (besides Jesus, of course) has nailed it yet. I don't think that means that we have the wrong God, I think there is probably value in ANYONE'S philosophy, and that ALL deep thought points toward the truth, some more than others, sure.

Imagine people standing at different hights and positions around a mountain... none of them have made it all the way to the top, but everyone IS on the same mountain, with the same objective, just all at different positions. And the REALLY interesting bit... is that your view of the summit changes with the perspective of each different position...

 

[Nadiine]

I don't think any one person or group (besides Jesus, of course) has nailed it yet. I don't think that means that we have the wrong God, I think there is probably value in ANYONE'S philosophy, and that ALL deep thought points toward the truth, some more than others, sure.

Well, define "nailed it"? Nailed what? ALL truth? Or enough truth to know God, know what God wants, what God does not want/like and to live according to His statutes?
Of course nobody knows ALL truth about God & scripture. Paul has already taught this in His epistles.

But we CAN know enough to be saved and have knowledge of right and wrong as per His word - even in simplistic facts.

Also, again what goes ignored is the Holy Spirit's function in a believer. The Spirit operates in us & thru us. Leading & guiding. We have the examples of New & OTest. saints living a certain way that shows us what's pleasing to God & what's not.

It isn't rocket science & we don't need secret decoder rings to get hidden signals from God to know anything.
HE HAS RELAYED TRUTH TO HIS SAINTS.
The issue is, WHO IS ONE & WHO ISN'T -according to what's plainly written.
People who reject what it says or cannot GRASP even the simplest of teachings is just showing they don't get it! (it's spiritually discerned).
Jesus said to them "why do you not understand my speech? Becuz you are of your father the devil".....
(I"m sure that went over real well with them).

Imagine people standing at different hights and positions around a mountain... none of them have made it all the way to the top, but everyone IS on the same mountain, with the same objective, just all at different positions. And the REALLY interesting bit... is that your view of the summit changes with the perspective of each different position...

Again, this depends on your definition of 'nailed it'?
We're either saved or unsaved. You can't be sorta saved anymore than you can be 'sorta pregnant'. We either know & believe enough for salvation & had a genuine conversion, or we don't know & believe what is necessary as per His teachings.

We CAN be saved & not understand some of the deeper teachings in the Bible, but we won't be disagreeing on the most basic of fundamentals of the Faith.

 

[vossler]

Seems logically deductible to me.

Axiom: God loves us

Therefore, God wants us to be happy.

Conclusion, because God wants us to be happy, the only time he will want us to act contrary to our desires is if our act is going to harm someone else.

What other possible reason is there for God wanting us to act in a way contrary to our hapiness?

O.K. before I ask my next question I would like you to do me a favor and tell me what happiness means to you and how it is God wants us to be happy. Once I know that I'll have a much better idea of where you stand. Thanks!

 

[david_x]

Seems logically deductible to me.

Axiom: God loves us

Therefore, God wants us to be happy.

Conclusion, because God wants us to be happy, the only time he will want us to act contrary to our desires is if our act is going to harm someone else.

What other possible reason is there for God wanting us to act in a way contrary to our hapiness?

Umm, love? Did you ever think that maybe you might have to give up stuff you love in order to save people, and yourself.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

O.K. before I ask my next question I would like you to do me a favor and tell me what happiness means to you and how it is God wants us to be happy. Once I know that I'll have a much better idea of where you stand. Thanks!

What is hapiness? A very interesting question indeed... but for our purposes here, how about we make it easy and say that God wants us to be happy, and that we are free to pursue this however we desire (assuming, of course, that our pursuit of hapiness doesn't impinge on anyone elses)

Does that help?

There is, of course, great depth to the philosophical question about what "true" hapiness is... or indeed if the average human can ever be "truly" happy... however, for the sake of this discussion, I'm content to let it go at "God doesn't want to impose any rules on us that will actively make us UNhappy" (again, except for cases where our pursuit of hapiness is likely to impinge on others e.g. even if raping or stealing is going to make you happy, that doesn't make it OK, because it comes at the expense of someone else)

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Umm, love? Did you ever think that maybe you might have to give up stuff you love in order to save people, and yourself.

Sure. But only if there is a logical reason for it.

"The Bible SEZ!" Does not count as a logical reason, by itself.

 

[Chie]

What is hapiness? A very interesting question indeed... but for our purposes here, how about we make it easy and say that God wants us to be happy, and that we are free to pursue this however we desire (assuming, of course, that our pursuit of hapiness doesn't impinge on anyone elses)

Does that help?

There is, of course, great depth to the philosophical question about what "true" hapiness is... or indeed if the average human can ever be "truly" happy... however, for the sake of this discussion, I'm content to let it go at "God doesn't want to impose any rules on us that will actively make us UNhappy" (again, except for cases where our pursuit of hapiness is likely to impinge on others e.g. even if raping or stealing is going to make you happy, that doesn't make it OK, because it comes at the expense of someone else)

My happiness impinged on my husband's privacy and freedom which made him very unhappy, what do you suppose God thinks about that?

 

[vossler]

Axiom: God loves us

Therefore, God wants us to be happy.

Conclusion, because God wants us to be happy, the only time he will want us to act contrary to our desires is if our act is going to harm someone else.

What other possible reason is there for God wanting us to act in a way contrary to our hapiness?

What is hapiness? A very interesting question indeed... but for our purposes here, how about we make it easy and say that God wants us to be happy, and that we are free to pursue this however we desire (assuming, of course, that our pursuit of hapiness doesn't impinge on anyone elses)

Does that help?

I was hoping you'd give me something more firm from one of your viable sources, but this will have to do.

First of all I'm not aware of God wanting us to be happy, at least the Scriptures don't speak of it. He does want us to worship, obey, honor, and exalt Him. By doing so we will naturally be content, not necessarily happy, at least not in the way the world typically measures happiness. You know, by how much money we have, how healthy we are, how successful we are, how many friends we have, etc. God doesn't speak of those things as ever being important. He does tell us that we should lose our lives for His sake, deny ourselves, humble ourselves, hunger for righteousness, be pure in heart, etc. If we do those things we will then be blessed which means blissfully happy.

Given that, there are and will be many reasons that God will cause us to have to do things that will not be easy and actually will be extremely difficult. Those type of things typically don't make us very happy, at least not in the short term, yet they are exactly the things that will give us eternal happiness and in the present allow us to be content.

God will ask us to act contrary to our desires all the time, that is if we're actively listening. The problem is our flesh doesn't want to do this and will find any and every reason to rationalize not doing what He asks. So it is not accurate to say that God will not ask us to act in a manner that is contrary to our desires. I would submit that most of the time it will be the exact opposite.

So going back to my original point. The truth of God's Word isn't something that is easily carried out. That's why even when we know what it is He wants us to do we find all sorts of reasons to justify not doing it. I know, I've done it many many times. The thing is we like to make it more difficult than it really is when all we need to do sometimes is just humble ourselves before Him and just obey. Easier said than done, but at least you are acknowledging the truth and not denying it.

The point here in all this rambling is that truth exists, it doesn't come in multiple flavors, and we are more than capable of discerning it if we choose to do so.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

My happiness impinged on my husband's privacy and freedom which made him very unhappy, what do you suppose God thinks about that?

I believe that God would encourage you to discuss and share, and attempt to come to a constructive compromise that respects both of your needs, with appropriate give and take from both sides of the issue.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

First of all I'm not aware of God wanting us to be happy, at least the Scriptures don't speak of it.

Isn't wanting your beloved to be happy a component of loving someone? If God loves us... doesn't it follow he wants us to be happy?

Conversely, if he isn't interested in our hapiness... how can his position towards us be described as love?

God will ask us to act contrary to our desires all the time, that is if we're actively listening.

Indeed. However, I don't believe such commandments are arbitrary or without logic. If God comands us to do something that is against our immediate desire, there is a logically deductible reason for it... what makes us unhappy or is challenging now, will lead to greater hapiness later...

But I DON'T believe he would ever ask us to do anything that makes us unhappy purely for the arbitrary reason of following rules... any challenge or sacrifice will have its eventual payoff.

The point here in all this rambling is that truth exists, it doesn't come in multiple flavors, and we are more than capable of discerning it if we choose to do so.

Again... the truth DOES exist... however... how do YOU know that YOUR interpretation of the truth is necesarily any more valid than anyone elses? I believe that our concience gives us guidance in this, coupled with our logical minds. And between these two, more and more, I am led to the conclussion that God will approve of anything we do, so long as it occurs with the informed consent of all other parties involved.

You don't have to agree with me, of course. However, it is my logical deduction that this is how a loving God would wish us to behave to each other, rather than setting up arbitrary rules that serve no defineable or knowable purpose.

 

[livingword26]

Again... the truth DOES exist... however... how do YOU know that YOUR interpretation of the truth is necesarily any more valid than anyone elses? I believe that our concience gives us guidance in this, coupled with our logical minds. And between these two, more and more, I am led to the conclussion that God will approve of anything we do, so long as it occurs with the informed consent of all other parties involved.

If you don't believe the bible then there is really no point, but if you do, then a couple of verses explain what happens when people turn their backs on Gods truth, and rely on their own wisdom. One is Romans 1:18-32. Also, listening to 'logical minds' and to our 'conscience' will not give us correct guidance, Jeremiah 17:9. The bible is not really hard to understand, although without the guidance of God, it is impossible. 2Corinthians 4:3-4. If we turn for the truth of the bible, then we are liable to believe that anything is ok.

2Ti 4:3-4
(3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
(4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[livingword26]

What is hapiness? A very interesting question indeed... but for our purposes here, how about we make it easy and say that God wants us to be happy, and that we are free to pursue this however we desire (assuming, of course, that our pursuit of hapiness doesn't impinge on anyone elses)

Of course God wants us to be happy, but if your pursuit of happiness leads you to a place of no return, is that Gods desire also? There are many things that can be embraced that will lead one away from God, and Gods desires for a persons life. He did give us free will and He will respect our right to make choices that will ultimately lead us to destruction. He will, however, continue to pursue us to the very end, even by sending messengers to call you back to Him. How will we escape if we follow our fleshly desires, if our lives are but a pursuit of happiness instead of a pursuit if God?

Mark 8:36-38

36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world , and lose his own soul?

37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
KJV

 

[livingword26]

Sure. But only if there is a logical reason for it.

"The Bible SEZ!" Does not count as a logical reason, by itself.

Idols are things that we love more than God. A particular idol, may not be a sin, in itself, but our love of it, our putting it before God makes it an idol. These things God may ask us to give up, even though it may not seem logical to us.

 

[livingword26]

I don't think any one person or group (besides Jesus, of course) has nailed it yet. I don't think that means that we have the wrong God, I think there is probably value in ANYONE'S philosophy, and that ALL deep thought points toward the truth, some more than others, sure.

John 14:6-7
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way , the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
KJV

Col 2:8-10
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
KJV

 

[vossler]

Isn't wanting your beloved to be happy a component of loving someone? If God loves us... doesn't it follow he wants us to be happy?

You know its where the rubber meets the road that determines whether what we're seeking is happiness or just pleasure. Happiness is seeking to know and serve God while the new house, car, girlfriend, etc. is usually a means for us to find happiness in temporal things that do not last. So going back to your question, yes God wants us to be happy, the problem is, our definition of what that is and His are usually two different things.

Indeed. However, I don't believe such commandments are arbitrary or without logic.

What would make you or someone else think they were? The problem is that we trust our instincts or logic and then will discount or rationalize His commands in order to please our flesh when we should be trusting Him implicitly.

If God comands us to do something that is against our immediate desire, there is a logically deductible reason for it... what makes us unhappy or is challenging now, will lead to greater hapiness later...

See this is where I have a bit of a problem. There are countless things God asked the children of Israel to do that didn't make sense or were illogical. For example, it didn't make sense to go into the promised land where they seemed like grasshoppers among the giants of the land. It sure didn't make sense for Gideon to fight the Midianites with only 300 men when he had 30,000 to begin with? No, God will most assuredly ask us to do things that make little to no sense, the question is are we listening and willing to do as He asks?

But I DON'T believe he would ever ask us to do anything that makes us unhappy purely for the arbitrary reason of following rules... any challenge or sacrifice will have its eventual payoff.

True, but let's not forget that that payoff may not come until the next life.

Again... the truth DOES exist... however... how do YOU know that YOUR interpretation of the truth is necesarily any more valid than anyone elses? I believe that our concience gives us guidance in this, coupled with our logical minds. And between these two, more and more, I am led to the conclussion that God will approve of anything we do, so long as it occurs with the informed consent of all other parties involved.

Here's what I would tell you to do if you're not sure. Test the truth and see if it will hold up. Test it against the Word of God, in other words does the Bible itself support your interpretation? Are there other Scriptures which back up your interpretation? Does your interpretation flow with the theme of the entire Bible, not just selected verses?

Sure our consciences will guide us, at least to a certain degree. However, please remember that we can harden our hearts toward God and not even hear our conscience in certain matters. The Word of God is never changing and always true, it doesn't adjust to the times, the times adjust to it.

I would caution you on the approach that God will approve of anything you do so long as it is with consent. Trust me, if what you wish to do is against His Word, He will not approve.

You don't have to agree with me, of course. However, it is my logical deduction that this is how a loving God would wish us to behave to each other, rather than setting up arbitrary rules that serve no defineable or knowable purpose.

My desire is not to make this into what I think or you think type of discussion, but one of what God thinks. His Word isn't as difficult to discern as most of us would believe. The thing is we need to earnestly seek Him first and then He will provide the way. I would ask that you try not to approach His Word on the basis of what you think, but instead on the basis of being open to what He thinks. That sounds logical and even somewhat easy, but it's really not. Everything God does has a purpose to it, it's our job, with His help, to discover it.

 

[Nadiine]

These are great issues & I fully agree w/ Vossler & Livingword26.

(to enemy), we're in a Christian Section here - it's already a GIVEN in this area (as proclaiming Christians) that GOD'S WORD IS PROVEN AS TRUTH and His word to us - and therefore already logical, well reasoned & supported by these other outside means which then usurps human philosophy & rationale.

It makes no sense to me why a Christian would ask another Christian to prove the bible thru other means if they already accept it as such???
Why is that being questioned (do you question that)?

YOUR definition of happiness & what the BIBLE says brings happiness, joy, peace, love, contentment, etc are supposed to be in agreement with one another. If they aren't, then why aren't they?

Therefore, if your "happiness" comes from things that God teaches are sinful/against His principles & teachings, then you're essentially saying, things that violate God's teachings & commands bring me the most happiness, not obedience to what Him.

Isn't that basically what it boils down to if you hold that position?

Jesus said we are His friends IF we obey His commands - it's not an absolute to everyone who just claims His name; God puts an attachment to it- IF our fruit is that of a genuine believers, THEN we are His friends, we are in agreement w/ Him and His promises apply to us.

He said He came that we would have abundant life - God tells us that the abundance of life comes thru obedience to His principles & teachings ONLY.
Not secular - not the world's teachings & principles & temporary pleasures. God is very clear.

"there is a way that SEEMS right unto a man, but the end thereof is DEATH"
"for My ways are HIGHER than your ways, and My Thoughts are HIGHER than your thoughts".​

The bottom line is, DO YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE TO BE SUFFICIENT TO TEACH YOU TRUTH FROM GOD or not.
Those of us who DO, find abundant life, joy, peace, happiness & contentment thru obeying Him which brings us all these blessings from Him.

Define happiness: I say, happiness is obeying God's Word - not being conformed to this secular world that offers temporary pleasures that are snares to harming us and others later.

If you're not going to fully accept what the Bible teaches, then that's on you, but the rest of us DO and take that Bible as the Written word of God and that ALL of it is truth from Him that we're to live by (for our own protection and good).

 

[Chie]

I believe that God would encourage you to discuss and share, and attempt to come to a constructive compromise that respects both of your needs, with appropriate give and take from both sides of the issue.

I done all I could do as a wife. In the end I gave him his respect , privacy and freedom . And he compromised our marriage, my son, our family. His happiness , was his will, not God's.

 

[Chie]

These are great issues & I fully agree w/ Vossler & Livingword26.

(to enemy), we're in a Christian Section here - it's already a GIVEN in this area (as proclaiming Christians) that GOD'S WORD IS PROVEN AS TRUTH and His word to us - and therefore already logical, well reasoned & supported by these other outside means which then usurps human philosophy & rationale.

It makes no sense to me why a Christian would ask another Christian to prove the bible thru other means if they already accept it as such???
Why is that being questioned (do you question that)?

YOUR definition of happiness & what the BIBLE says brings happiness, joy, peace, love, contentment, etc are supposed to be in agreement with one another. If they aren't, then why aren't they?

Therefore, if your "happiness" comes from things that God teaches are sinful/against His principles & teachings, then you're essentially saying, things that violate God's teachings & commands bring me the most happiness, not obedience to what Him.

Isn't that basically what it boils down to if you hold that position?

Jesus said we are His friends IF we obey His commands - it's not an absolute to everyone who just claims His name; God puts an attachment to it- IF our fruit is that of a genuine believers, THEN we are His friends, we are in agreement w/ Him and His promises apply to us.

He said He came that we would have abundant life - God tells us that the abundance of life comes thru obedience to His principles & teachings ONLY.
Not secular - not the world's teachings & principles & temporary pleasures. God is very clear.

"there is a way that SEEMS right unto a man, but the end thereof is DEATH"
"for My ways are HIGHER than your ways, and My Thoughts are HIGHER than your thoughts".​

The bottom line is, DO YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE TO BE SUFFICIENT TO TEACH YOU TRUTH FROM GOD or not.
Those of us who DO, find abundant life, joy, peace, happiness & contentment thru obeying Him which brings us all these blessings from Him.

Define happiness: I say, happiness is obeying God's Word - not being conformed to this secular world that offers temporary pleasures that are snares to harming us and others later.

If you're not going to fully accept what the Bible teaches, then that's on you, but the rest of us DO and take that Bible as the Written word of God and that ALL of it is truth from Him that we're to live by (for our own protection and good).

You know Nadine it is sad that God to many is no longer the God of the OT and NT but is fashioned in the hearts of men so they can be as they will, with no conviction. There is one truth. When truth is altered , it becomes a lie and is no longer truth.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Sure our consciences will guide us, at least to a certain degree. However, please remember that we can harden our hearts toward God and not even hear our conscience in certain matters. The Word of God is never changing and always true, it doesn't adjust to the times, the times adjust to it.

Uhuh. Except for all the examples of where his instruction to us DOES actually change... Leviticus anyone?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

(to enemy), we're in a Christian Section here - it's already a GIVEN in this area (as proclaiming Christians) that GOD'S WORD IS PROVEN AS TRUTH and His word to us - and therefore already logical, well reasoned & supported by these other outside means which then usurps human philosophy & rationale.

So... you're suggesting I'm not a real Christian because my interpretation and understanding of the human relationship to God differs to your own?

If you're not going to fully accept what the Bible teaches, then that's on you, but the rest of us DO and take that Bible as the Written word of God and that ALL of it is truth from Him that we're to live by (for our own protection and good).

I fully accept what the Bible teaches. However it seems that it teaches you something different to what it teaches me.

But again, I'd suggest that NEITHER of our understanding is 100% accurate, nor that neither of our positions about it had nothing to teach the other.

Although I must admit that your insistence that you have a better grip on what the Bible means than I do, and that you are a "better" Christian than me as a result IS frustrating