Monogamy

[Nadiine]

Its your willingness to interpret the message in line with your pre-existing understanding that I question

I think I can say the same for you, can't I?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I think I can say the same for you, can't I

I hope not. Pretty much all I have EVER done here is ask questions... which you think the answers to are either so completely obvious or so completely unthinkable, that they are grounds for offence.

I like to think I have an open mind actually, and if someone with a different opinion to my own wishes to discuss the matter with me, I hope that I am open to persuasion

 

[david_x]

And I say again... if it weren't for lusting for non-spouses, just a bit... who would get married in the first place?

That doesn't make it right, just because somthing is hard does not give us the right to ignore it.

 

[Nadiine]

I hope not. Pretty much all I have EVER done here is ask questions... which you think the answers to are either so completely obvious or so completely unthinkable, that they are grounds for offence.

I like to think I have an open mind actually, and if someone with a different opinion to my own wishes to discuss the matter with me, I hope that I am open to persuasion

O yes, the "open mind" myth
Sadly, people tend to think that having an open mind means that ALL traditional and simplistic meaning are false or wrong, and anything that usurps traditional & simplistic meaning is true and good.

My mind is wide open - only in the parameters of God's truths.
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

The Spirit of God within us does His work leading, guiding & convicting us in truth... I don't ignore Him when faced with issues & situations.

The more closely we follow God, the more sensitive we are to His Spirit's leading. We get immediate checks in our spirits about things - it's not good to ignore or avoid that - becuz the more you do that, the duller your perception gets to His leading.

Alot of issues are cut & dry/black & white. I think it's PEOPLE who cloud things with issues that are contrary to God's teachings & imo, it's THOSE things that make decisions so gray & murky.

Not all things are easy or obvious, but alot is & when you follow the leading & conviction of the Holy Spirit within, you're better off than chasing rabbits down every secular hole that exists.

 

[david_x]

Open minded to anything new.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Sadly, people tend to think that having an open mind means that ALL traditional and simplistic meaning are false or wrong, and anything that usurps traditional & simplistic meaning is true and good.

No. An open mind has no such pre-conceptions.

I am certainly open to the possibility that the oldest of philosophies and ethical models are 100% true and accurate. However I do not see any reason to think that the Bible should be the ONLY indicator of this, and such truths should be able to be determined by other means of logic and empiricism.

My mind is wide open - only in the parameters of God's truths.

Tem and I mean this in the nicest possible way, you arent really open minded then, are you? Because you are saying, "I will believe anything, as long as its inline with what I believe God means"... which is a pretty clear way of saying that your mind is already made up, isn't it?

Alot of issues are cut & dry/black & white. I think it's PEOPLE who cloud things with issues that are contrary to God's teachings & imo, it's THOSE things that make decisions so gray & murky.

Not all things are easy or obvious, but alot is & when you follow the leading & conviction of the Holy Spirit within, you're better off than chasing rabbits down every secular hole that exists.

Again, my point is this... when two people have equally firm convictions that their opinion is the right, spirit guided one... who is right? can only one opinion be valid? Or can they both be valid in different ways?

 

[Nadiine]

No. An open mind has no such pre-conceptions.

You can SAY that, but the truth is, that's what is DISPLAYED directly and predominantly in most who claim to be open minded. (as if it's some prize out of a cereal box or something). :/ I may never understand that....
When you see that the vast majority of 'open minded' thinkers reject traditional values & cling to liberalism, one can only make the obvious assessment.

I know what it SHOULD mean, the fact is, that's not what the result seems to be.

I am certainly open to the possibility that the oldest of philosophies and ethical models are 100% true and accurate. However I do not see any reason to think that the Bible should be the ONLY indicator of this,

Despite its claims of itself... yes.

and such truths should be able to be determined by other means of logic and empiricism.

NOT when they violate other teachings found in the same word. It's either truth or it's NOT truth. It's either sufficient for teaching God's truth to man, or it is NOT sufficient and man is therefore left to his own understanding of truth - becuz there is no standard of truth given by the Deity of all things and all life.

Tem and I mean this in the nicest possible way, you arent really open minded then, are you? Because you are saying, "I will believe anything, as long as its inline with what I believe God means"...

I am open minded to TRUTH, not your standards of them.
Since the bible IS supported by scientific, archaeologic, historical, prophetical, medical and logical (incl. reason) standards, then YES, I can therefore use it fully to base TRUTH on.
What is true.
If it isn't true in SOME areas yet true in others, I HAVE NOTHING BUT MYSELF TO RELY ON in this life to know truth by.
And that is actually ILLOGICAL that an all-knowing, all-loving God who judges mankind for their actions, doesn't leave His creation with the means to know Him or Truth by - forcing them to fumble blindly on their own intellects that are FLAWED and corrupted by a sin nature they possess.
If that's what you think being open minded results in, have at it, I reject it on it's face and by biblical facts that deny such a fallacy.

which is a pretty clear way of saying that your mind is already made up, isn't it?Again, my point is this... when two people have equally firm convictions that their opinion is the right, spirit guided one... who is right? can only one opinion be valid? Or can they both be valid in different ways?

Your mind is made up too. You can CLAIM it's not, but funny thing, NO ONES arguments seem to sway you from that non conservative, unorthodox worldview you carry.
& even when shown it in scripture plainly written, it still isn't accepted for what it says in its contexts.

You can CLAIM anything you want, it's what others see that's displayed that get's noticed & understood. Claims are nothing - actions are proof. (which is what James essentially taught - faith without ACTIONS behind it, are dead.
Merely claiming something doesn't make it true and I'm sorry I cannot agree that open minded in our PC culture is accepting & welcoming of traditional doctrines or teachings.

 

[Nadiine]

by the way, I just remembered this is a thread on Monogamy, this is off topic now.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Since the bible IS supported by scientific, archaeologic, historical, prophetical, medical and logical (incl. reason) standards, then YES, I can therefore use it fully to base TRUTH on.

Indeed?

You mean your idea of TRUTH is fully based on your INTERPRETATION of what the Bible says, which, as I am desperately trying to point out to you, is not necesarily the same thing as what the Bible ACTUALLY says...

You can CLAIM it's not, but funny thing, NO ONES arguments seem to sway you from that non conservative, unorthodox worldview you carry.

Oh, please, do feel free to try, and I promise I will listen to your arguments... however, if your argument is based only on what you interpret certain portions of the Bible to mean, well, that won't do it. I'll need to see corroborating evidence from somewhere else too. If the TRUTH is the way you say it is, such corroborating evidence should not be hard to come by, nor should there be any ambiguity to it.

So, to get us back on track...

I believe that God is happy if people conduct themselves in such a way that they are happy and those around them are happy. To achieve this, the Bible sets out a number of guidleines which, in the context of the time at which they were written, were the most effective way to ensure the continued happuiness of everyone with in the community.

However, I DO NOT believe, that those guidlines are, in themselves, moral.

So, the Biblical laws about marriage are to ensure the smooth running of a community with a minimum of fuss generated by unknown or mixed lineage, or compromise of property rights through infidelity...

But it is not the marriage rules THEMSELVES I believe to be the important part. The IMPORTANT part, is the intended result, that is, ensuering the smooth running of the community.

Today, I believe that the same end cn be reached through judicious application of the principal of implied consent.

Please feel free to discuss...

 

[Chie]

It comes natural to the flesh to defend an open mind pertaining to worlds views , however we are not called to walk in the flesh but in the spirit.
Scriptures interpret Scriptures. Rightly dividing the word is not of flesh(man) but of spirit(God).
Convictions and Truth will not be revealed to the carnal mind.
Debating the word of man does not change the Word of God.

 

[dayhiker]

I think "outthinking" clear scripture is also dangerous - we give more honesty & common sense to understanding novels & fairy tales in their meanings sometimes.

I don't argue eloquently, but I do think the Bible is quite clear on a majority of serious subjects involving sin. Imo, it's people with agendas that warp its simplicity.

We also have a knack of justifying things for ourselves - and we also have a knack of searing our conciences.
Alot of times it's your FIRST thought & feelings about something or someone that the SPIRIT is speaking to us thru.
If we keep suppressing those 'checks in our spirit', we become dull of hearing the truth over time.

If the Clear & obvious verses aren't enough, nothing else will be.

nadiine,
You are too humble on your estimation of your ability to communicate your point of view. Your doing a great job.

I agree with you that people over think the Bible. It can be fun to really dig in and learn many points of view and all kinds of facts about a Bible topic. Yet, to me if I keep poly verses monogamy simple. Its pretty clear. Many of God choice men were poly. God didn't say one thing negative to them or about them. There are several positive scriptures even.

I don't see Jesus, Paul or any other NT teacher saying anything has changed. So the gospel can go to all cultures and the requirement to all cultures is for them to love God and those they come in contact with. That seems very simple to me. If a person can't live and love in poly, then they shouldn't. If a person can't live monogamy and love that person then they shouldn't. But my experience has been that God gives me love to love almost everyone I meet.

Yup, I agree with you, simple is better.
dayhiker

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I don't see Jesus, Paul or any other NT teacher saying anything has changed.

Except all the bits of Leviticus that so many literalists seem happy to ignore...

 

[Nadiine]

nadiine,
You are too humble on your estimation of your ability to communicate your point of view. Your doing a great job.

I appreciate that - honestly, I listen to theologians, teachers & scholars & they're so amazing in what they know... and use words I've never even heard of! lol
I took one apologetics course, and I spent most of my time in a dictionary looking up the words they used so I could just understand what they were trying to say - nevermind their points!

I agree with you that people over think the Bible. It can be fun to really dig in and learn many points of view and all kinds of facts about a Bible topic.

Oh, I do that too - I like to dig around - I just don't let my mind start taking over & running off with stuff that I know works against other scriptures.

Yet, to me if I keep poly verses monogamy simple. Its pretty clear. Many of God choice men were poly. God didn't say one thing negative to them or about them. There are several positive scriptures even.

I don't know if many of them were - some were. My other thought was to search a financial trail - were the ones that were poly the RICH ones?
I think Job was monogamous? I don't remember reading of his wives & other children?

I just read in Ezra a passage about them having to put away their 'foreign women'... they were in a habit of disobeying God. They kept falling into sins & God had to judge them repeatedly (even to the point of being overtaken by enemies).
So how much of their polygamy was "wanted" by God? I doubt any of it becuz I see no verses even in the OT that promote it... I just see it as allowed.

There are quite a few things that happened in the OT that you don't see God judging or dealing with, but that doesn't mean He's happy with what was done.

I don't see Jesus, Paul or any other NT teacher saying anything has changed.

I disagree, the verses I had posted on this do say that - directly and indirectly imo. (which if I repeat them all again, I'll tear my own hair out) lol

So the gospel can go to all cultures and the requirement to all cultures is for them to love God and those they come in contact with. That seems very simple to me. If a person can't live and love in poly, then they shouldn't. If a person can't live monogamy and love that person then they shouldn't. But my experience has been that God gives me love to love almost everyone I meet.

In the documentary I saw on Mormon Polygamy, it's a real nitemare of a lifestyle. And there's a whole underground thing with it... some women are trying to escape out of it, there's accusations of child molestations by the men -
MOST men are interested in it for the physical reasons only - I still claim that if they weren't allowed to have SEX with the additional wives (only being able to have sexual relations w/ the first, original wife), most wouldn't bother with it.
What did Solomon need with thousands of concubines? Let's figure the source out... and the bible does speak of adultery as LUST after another.

Yup, I agree with you, simple is better.

Ya I think so too - there's alot of deep issues involved with it.
I can promise you, if I heard the husband that I loved 'getting busy' w/ the woman in the next bedroom moaning & groaning.... there is no WAY I wouldn't have a natural emotion of anger or jealousy. (looks for baseball bat) heh

I think people make polygamy sound alot more 'fun' than it really is. That documentary looked terrible. I can only imagine how the UNSAVED would work polygamy freely.

 

[vossler]

You mean your idea of TRUTH is fully based on your INTERPRETATION of what the Bible says, which, as I am desperately trying to point out to you, is not necesarily the same thing as what the Bible ACTUALLY says...Oh, please, do feel free to try, and I promise I will listen to your arguments... however, if your argument is based only on what you interpret certain portions of the Bible to mean, well, that won't do it. I'll need to see corroborating evidence from somewhere else too. If the TRUTH is the way you say it is, such corroborating evidence should not be hard to come by, nor should there be any ambiguity to it.

I'm curious, what do you consider corroborating evidence? What sources are viable?

Also, if everything comes down to a point of 'that's your interpretation', how does one ever find the truth? I mean if each of us can have our own interpretation and believe it with all our hearts then in the end all you've got is a Bible that is relative to each person with no absolute truth.

I believe that God is happy if people conduct themselves in such a way that they are happy and those around them are happy.

To achieve this, the Bible sets out a number of guidleines which, in the context of the time at which they were written, were the most effective way to ensure the continued happuiness of everyone with in the community.

This is a great example of what I'm talking about. Please give me some biblical support for the statement or idea that "God is happy if people conduct themselves in such a way that they are happy and those around them are happy." Where did this idea originate?

 

[Nadiine]

Also, if everything comes down to a point of 'that's your interpretation', how does one ever find the truth? I mean if each of us can have our own interpretation and believe it with all our hearts then in the end all you've got is a Bible that is relative to each person with no absolute truth.

Exactly. As I said, this boils down to nothing more than a Deity plopping humans on the earth to fumble around in the utter dark trying figure out what's going on, what their purpose is, what's right & good, what's wrong, set up laws for themselves without self imploding, figure out what's healthy, medical help/treatments, not knowing where they came from, not knowing where they're going, how or why... what's next, who God is...
the lists go on & on.
God GAVE MAN direct revelations and then had them WRITE revelations & information so we could KNOW who He was, what was past, what's ahead, what pleases Him... what doesn't,...

The bible is either a source of God's truth, OR WE'RE PURELY ON OUR OWN HUMAN WISDOM here. Every man for himself. It's illogical of a God to do who makes this creation, cares for it, yet leaves them as infants crawling in the dark.
THEN CLAIMS TO JUDGE THEM FOR THEIR WORDS & DEEDS. eeeeeeks.

This is a great example of what I'm talking about. Please give me some biblical support for the statement or idea that "God is happy if people conduct themselves in such a way that they are happy and those around them are happy." Where did this idea originate?

That's hard for some people becuz the Bible is an error filled problem that's only good for some philosophical principles & teachings they think are suggested to us as help... not a source of absolute truths to follow.
(if they even believe absolute truth exists).
(that's a whole OTHER thread!).

 

[david_x]

Tem and I mean this in the nicest possible way, you arent really open minded then, are you? Because you are saying, "I will believe anything, as long as its inline with what I believe God means"... which is a pretty clear way of saying that your mind is already made up, isn't it?

As a christian I like to follow God.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I'm curious, what do you consider corroborating evidence? What sources are viable?

All sources are viable, and remain so as long as their dictates are contiguous with all the other available logic and evidence

Also, if everything comes down to a point of 'that's your interpretation', how does one ever find the truth? I mean if each of us can have our own interpretation and believe it with all our hearts then in the end all you've got is a Bible that is relative to each person with no absolute truth.

Finally... someone else who gets it.

Although, slight difference with you last line... its not that there is no absolute empirical truth, I believe there most certainly is. However, whther any human will ever have a complete understanding of it is unlikely, and its way less likely that any two humans will be in complete agreement about it.

EVERYTHING WE "KNOW" IS A MATTER OF INTERPRETATION. The Bible is no exception.

This is a great example of what I'm talking about. Please give me some biblical support for the statement or idea that "God is happy if people conduct themselves in such a way that they are happy and those around them are happy." Where did this idea originate?

God loves each and every one of us, right? what possible reason could he have for NOT wanting any of us to be happy, assuming our happiness does not impinge on anyone elses?

 

[vossler]

All sources are viable, and remain so as long as their dictates are contiguous with all the other available logic and evidence

This explains many of our differences. There is but one source of Truth that I use. All other sources of truth are subject to it and if they don't comply with it they are discounted as rubbish.

Finally... someone else who gets it.

I don't know if that's good or bad.

Although, slight difference with you last line... its not that there is no absolute empirical truth, I believe there most certainly is. However, whether any human will ever have a complete understanding of it is unlikely, and its way less likely that any two humans will be in complete agreement about it.

EVERYTHING WE "KNOW" IS A MATTER OF INTERPRETATION. The Bible is no exception.

So then for you there really isn't an issue with truth per se, it's all just a personal interpretation of how each of us sees Scripture. You'd like yours to be as respected and honored as mine or anyone else's. Am I right? What's true for you may not be true for me because truth is relative or a matter of personal interpretation, correct?

God loves each and every one of us, right? what possible reason could he have for NOT wanting any of us to be happy, assuming our happiness does not impinge on anyone elses?

Yes God loves each and everyone one of us, that is true, but love wasn't the question, happiness was. Where did God tell anyone that He is happy if you are happy and those around you are? Please support this claim with a viable source.

 

[Nadiine]

Although, slight difference with you last line... its not that there is no absolute empirical truth, I believe there most certainly is. However, whther any human will ever have a complete understanding of it is unlikely, and its way less likely that any two humans will be in complete agreement about it.

EVERYTHING WE "KNOW" IS A MATTER OF INTERPRETATION.

Your issues are confronted in the Bible... God says that His word is "spiritually discerned". One NEEDS the Holy Spirit to lead them to understand GOd's truths.

AND THAT IS WHY MANY INTERPRET IT SO DIFFERENTLY. And they think that just becuz they disagree w/ other Christians, that "the other Christians just have it wrong", OR, they can be right too -

The truth is, God says you either rightly divide the Word of God (discern/interpret) it in the CENTRAL doctrines that consist of salvation, or you don't.
If you don't, I'm afraid that person is not saved at all.

Not all doctrines hinge on salvation, some can be differed on. Some cannot. And the outward evidence is the FRUIT of the person's life.
Is there a regeneration that patterns what the Bible says will occur? Or is that lacking along with the continual rejection of central doctrines?

Both sides who oppose one another cannot be right - either one is wrong, or BOTH are wrong & have the wrong God altogether.

Anyways, there's a reason there's alot of disagreements on serious doctrines, but it in no way makes both sides right.
The one who is wrong will get a rude awakening at some point (as far as scriputure teaches).

*I'll post supportive scriptures tomorrow*

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Where did God tell anyone that He is happy if you are happy and those around you are? Please support this claim with a viable source.

Seems logically deductible to me.

Axiom: God loves us

Therefore, God wants us to be happy.

Conclusion, because God wants us to be happy, the only time he will want us to act contrary to our desires is if our act is going to harm someone else.

What other possible reason is there for God wanting us to act in a way contrary to our hapiness?