Modesty

[sculpturegirl]

I think the point is that if you dress like a harlot, people will treat you like one. i, for one, want to look like what I am and not have people distracted while I attempt to make eye contact. No, men should never act like boors, but neither should we give them reason.

Besides modesty isn't just about clothing.

 

[Clem is Me]

Eye contact is really important. Brains are important. Girls dig me because I am fun to talk to. I treat them like humans first. I hate it. Why me? All any chick is interested in are my brains. I get so sick and tired of being used for my comforting words and thoughtful discussions. I feel cheap, worthless. When will women look past my heart and mind and see that I am horny!?

 

[feral]

That's the point, empowerment is allowing people to wear what they want. Nobody cares if guys wear strange clothing, or muscle shirts which show off their arms.

Why should it matter with women?

Empowerment is not the same thing as freedom. I don't think anyone is advocating restricting what anyone, men or women, wear. It is their choice, and will remain their choice as long as they exercise it. I merely feel that revealing clothes are not empowering for women because when we wear them we are encouraging others to look at our body, not our brains. When you think of a waitress at Hooter's, do you think of her as someone who has a lot of self-respect and who is usually taken seriously, or is she an object to pinch and goggle? Unfortunately, much of society does not pay attention to a woman's strength and mind when she is shoving her exposed breasts in their face. Obviously, some women are able to use their sexuality to gain them minimal power, or at least to get their way sometimes, but many, especially younger girls, just end up getting used if they treat themselves like sex toys instead of people.

Strange clothing? I don't think that is what modesty is all about. I wear spiked dog collars and consider myself modest. What I am referring to is clothing that covers someone to a reasonable extent, which is defined by the situation. One would wear a lot less at the beach then in an office, and not be considered immodest by me. I do think men can be modest as well. Most men are. We don't see a lot of men exposing their hips and buttocks in the public sphere, or dressing in clothing tight enough to show off every crease. As a feminist, I happen to think that is indicative of society's attitude towards the sexes. Men don't have to show off their body or look sexy to get power and status, but unfortunately, some women do, or are encouraged to at least.

The reason why people are so sex-crazed is because people make such a big deal out of it. If nobody cared, we wouldn't be in such a sex craze.

Who is making a big deal out of it? Sex is not restricted in our culture. In the US, you can turn on any channel any time of day and see steamy sex scenes, spouses having sex with people they are not married to, women in skimpy clothes being used to sell all variety of merchandise. Go to any high school and you'll see girls flashing their thongs, wearing shirts that show off their bellies or short skirts that get people to look at their legs. We are not a repressed society, sexually speaking. You can purchase magazines and videos depicting any position and pairing you find arousing, or go to numerous strip clubs, see live nude dancers or request them in your home. How is this repression?

Modesty means nothing to me, really. I am more interested in honesty.

How do the two differ? Can someone not be humble and modest, and yet also be honest??

I have read the book and as I understood it, Shalit simply points out that modesty is an affirmation of a woman's right to make boundaries. I believe that my body, my time, and my affection are of great value and modern society expects women to dish too much out for too little in return. I shouldn't have to dress sexy just to get attention from men, or kiss someone just because they took me out to dinner, or sleep with someone just because they said "I love you."

It's not about telling other people how to be or how to dress but of SUPPORTING their right to make such boundaries for themselves. They are not suppressed, hung-up, stuck-up or frigid - they're empowered.

Exactly. Exactly, exactly, exactly, you rock!

When will women look past my heart and mind and see that I am horny!?

Next time, tell them. "Quit crying on my shoulder, you can cry in my bed"

 

[Clem is Me]

How do the two differ? Can someone not be humble and modest, and yet also be honest??

I guess they can, but that wouldn't interest me. I just think focusing on presentation instead of substance at all misses the point.

 

[feral]

I guess they can, but that wouldn't interest me. I just think focusing on presentation instead of substance at all misses the point.

See, that's what I think modesty is all about. A modest person is not resorting to flaunting her body and exterior to get attention. Instead of trying to look sexy, she is concentrating on what really matters, and hoping people will notice her personality, brains and inner beauty instead. Someone who comes across as immodest usually takes a lot of time to look sexy and pretty, whereas someone who is modest dedicates their time to a more worthy cause. And lest someone harp on the sexism business, men can and should be modest to. It's just that nearly all of them already are, in appearence if not in heart. You don't see a lot of guys walking around in short skirts (though that would be interesting ). To me, modesty says a woman has something more going for her then her body, while an immodest appearence says "my looks are all I have, and I'm desperate for you to look at me". To each his/her own, I guess.

 

[Clem is Me]

I see it quite differently, actually. I see a woman who is overly modest as just a different style of messed up. The women I get on with are almost always immodest and modest, tasteful and gaudy all at once. SKin is fabulous. So is a suit and coat. But it;s the overall carriage that matters. If a woman dresses skimpy but handles the conversation I will be just as impressed as if she were in a nun's habit and waxed assured. Hussies and nuns are, in equal measure, pathetic. One demands attention so she can wield power with her privates, the other disdains lusts to prove something no one cares about. Morons. Given a choice I will always enjoy looking at the hussies more than talking to the nuns, but in the end I would rather talk to a confident, self assured and independant woman who seemed entirely unaware she was wearing clothes to begin with.

 

[SallyNow]

...
If I see a girl in a short tight skirt, low cut tight shirt showing off her stomach, I will think a few things, and I am NOT afraid of telling them.

1. She is trying to get guys attention in a sexual way, and she is whether thats her intentions or not. If she does not realize this, she is either ignorant, naive, or a pathalogical liar.

2. She is showing off her good looks. One can be VERY VERY attractive without showing skin. My g/f is a perfect example.
...

4. I would probably think that hanging out with her is unhealthy for me because of reason one and two.

You know, your point may have been valid in North America 30 years ago. However, now that "sexy" dress is the standard, it is not a very valid point. Another example: In the 50's, a young man wearing jeans, instead of slacks, would have had the "slacker,rebel" label thrust upon him. However, these days, when a young guy is wearing slacks and a button up-shirt, (standard for the 1950's) it's likely he will be asked why he is dressed up.

Hussies and nuns are, in equal measure, pathetic. One demands attention so she can wield power with her privates, the other disdains lusts to prove something no one cares about.

What?!?
[rant]
A nun is giving up the worldly life to CARE and LOVE and HELP those around her. She is learning and becoming a philosopher; historically, intellegent women who wanted time to think and learn became nuns; these women were not, are not, insecure or thinking they are better just because. They are doing something wonderful and, thankfully, they do NOT pre-judge as you do-so perhaps, they ARE better people . How DARE you compare a nun to a 'hussie'! A nun is doing something only a few people are wonderful enough and smart enough to do: to devote their lives to others, to God, and to learning and thinking and not being shallow . A nun's habit is a tradition, something so that they do not have to worry about what's hot or not, so they can consentrate on issues and thoughts much deeper than most peoples. What you said is offensive and wrong...perhaps learn about actual nuns before going saying something so incredibly incorrect. [/rant]

And on a side note-it's all right to call women "hussies" (or men "players" ) simply because of the way they dress-wait for them to open their mouths and talk for a while to determine what sort of person you think they are.

But even mental modesty I don't approve of on the grounds that modesty cheapens your company[friends, family and etc]. If you can't be honest with someone about yourself then there's a problem.

I have been seriously thinking about getting "Wendy Shalit's "A Return to Modesty: Rediscovering a Lost Virtue". My concept on modesty is that it is not about sexy or not sexy-it is about the appropriatness of something too. An exteme of what I mean: You don't need a snowsuit at the beach; and a Speedo is too cold at the ski slopes.
Essentially, my take on modesty is that. Price is also a factor: an expensive suit is not good for painting, a $1 pair of thrift-shop overalls is not good for a wedding.
This goes for what you talk about also: I don't think modesty means you hide things from your close friends: it is totally appropriate to talk about wierd, embaressing, hurtful, annoying, fun, sexy things with your best friend-to be honest and always yourself...but your Hist 101 class doesn't need to know your crush on George from Tim Horten's cafe, and it doesn't want you interupting, while in the middle of a lecture, that you find Johnny Depp and Kate Winslet a really super-kala-fradulistically romantic couple in Finding Neverland ...but interupting your friend during The Simpsons is totally okay.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

Time and culture does not change modesty. I know girls know only wear skirts cause pants are imodest. I have to agree with them. Just because culture, the world, gets desensitised does not mean we have to.

 

[Clem is Me]

What?!?
[rant]
A nun is giving up the worldly life to CARE and LOVE and HELP those around her. She is learning and becoming a philosopher; historically, intellegent women who wanted time to think and learn became nuns; these women were not, are not, insecure or thinking they are better just because. They are doing something wonderful and, thankfully, they do NOT pre-judge as you do-so perhaps, they ARE better people . How DARE you compare a nun to a 'hussie'! A nun is doing something only a few people are wonderful enough and smart enough to do: to devote their lives to others, to God, and to learning and thinking and not being shallow . A nun's habit is a tradition, something so that they do not have to worry about what's hot or not, so they can consentrate on issues and thoughts much deeper than most peoples. What you said is offensive and wrong...perhaps learn about actual nuns before going saying something so incredibly incorrect. [/rant]

And on a side note-it's all right to call women "hussies" (or men "players" ) simply because of the way they dress-wait for them to open their mouths and talk for a while to determine what sort of person you think they are.


QUOTE]

So I take it you missed my point, then?

 

[feral]

Time and culture does not change modesty. I know girls know only wear skirts cause pants are imodest. I have to agree with them. Just because culture, the world, gets desensitised does not mean we have to.

When I was in Christian school there were some girls who would never wear trousers or jeans because they felt it was immodest, but that's never been something I could understand. Could you explain why such things are considered immodest?

I see it quite differently, actually. I see a woman who is overly modest as just a different style of messed up.

Overly modest is something else entirely. I'm not referring to people who are pathological about covering their bodies, or who feel that anything less then a burqa is immodest. What I'm talking about is wearing nice clothes that just don't show a heck of a lot of skin. Oh well, you have your opinion on it, I'll have mine...variety is the spice of life after all

 

[Maynard Keenan]

There are times and places where skin is acceptable. At the beach its expected and you'r not being immodest (unless you're like wearing a thong or as a guy a speedo bikini). But in general, if a girl is obviously dressing to show herself off, I can't say I don't like it but I take girls more seriously who are a little more covered up. You can show off your looks, be fashionable, and very sexy and cute without showing lots of cleavage and legs and stomache. I also feel more confortable around someone who is more covered. Do girls feel the same way? Would you be more confortable with a guy with clothes on as opposed to a shirtless one?

 

[Gizmo_likes_Rambo]

haha [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]less one. sorry. someone should edit that...

 

[SallyNow]

Time and culture does not change modesty. I know girls know only wear skirts cause pants are imodest. I have to agree with them. Just because culture, the world, gets desensitised does not mean we have to.

I think you need history lesson. Pants can be very modest, and have been for a couple of millenia. Take a look at a classic design:

So I take it you missed my point, then?

No, I find the way you got to your point very offensive.

 

[sculpturegirl]

I have been seriously thinking about getting "Wendy Shalit's "A Return to Modesty: Rediscovering a Lost Virtue".

I highly recommend it. All of my friend read it my senior year at college when it came out. I am re-reading it now. Very worthwhile

 

[justaman]

I haven't read it. Should I take a wild stab in the dark and suppose it advocates sexual repression in one form or another?

How progressive. I guess they won't quit until y'all are back in the kitchen having dinner ready by five again.

 

[Mustaphile]

Most of the opinions I have read in this thread only talk about how modesty effects themselves in regards to personal empowerment, having the freedom to dress how they please, not being a victims of discrimination, etc., but what about how we affect others? Does this even matter to us, or are we only concerned with how our clothing makes us feel? I think we should try to be part of a greater community by looking beyond our own needs and, at least for a minute, consider the needs of others.

Personally I have a need to not have skimpy women parade in front of me. I know I have my own battle to resist temptation, but it should be obvious that if a woman is wearing very sexy clothes it makes this harder for me. I am very vulnerable to these temptations--I admit this is a weakness for me. I'm just saying out of kindess or sensitivity it would be wonderful to think how your dress makes others feel. Sometimes it could embarrass people, injure people spiritually, repulse people in some cases. Why not be sensitive?

Basil

I'm going to chime in and agree with you, vanshan. I have to look away from women who dress immodestly. I have one lady that I love, and will always remain faithful too. I also like keeping my thoughts pure in that regard, I don't think it's a healthy thing to fantasise, or feel lust towards other women when your involved with one woman, and somebody running around with pants stuck half way up their butt crack and with their breasts hanging out of their top, is not something I need to see at all. I make my choice when I look away, so its not a huge issue, but I would think that some people could sensitive to others around them. I don't particularly like women who let it all hang out, it's too distracting for me. I suppose they get a kick out it though. A boost to their ego's at the expense of others.

 

[sculpturegirl]

I haven't read it. Should I take a wild stab in the dark and suppose it advocates sexual repression in one form or another?

How progressive. I guess they won't quit until y'all are back in the kitchen having dinner ready by five again.

Yes, that would be a stab in the dark and it would be incorrect. Shalit makes a very convincing argument that modesty and monogomy is quite the opposite of sexual repression. She is a very clever writer. I would recommend the book whether you think you might believe in what you think her premise might be or not. She asks some very interesting questions. Even if you disagree with her answers, the questions are very worth pondering.

 

[SallyNow]

I'm going to chime in and agree with you, vanshan. I have to look away from women who dress immodestly. I have one lady that I love, and will always remain faithful too. I also like keeping my thoughts pure in that regard, I don't think it's a healthy thing to fantasise, or feel lust towards other women when your involved with one woman, and somebody running around with pants stuck half way up their butt crack and with their breasts hanging out of their top, is not something I need to see at all. I make my choice when I look away, so its not a huge issue, but I would think that some people could sensitive to others around them. I don't particularly like women who let it all hang out, it's too distracting for me. I suppose they get a kick out it though. A boost to their ego's at the expense of others.

Hmm...I have to ask this.
Are you doing anything to actually change the culture of sex that we live in? Do you respect every woman and man for their inside talents...do you never, ever judge a person by their outward appearance? Do you try to the change the culture from the inside, are you in the media, and gallantly plugging away at banishing the stereotypes? Are you fighting the culture of sex that dictates a woman's power is in sex, and that dressing sexy is super-normal? Or are you just saying you look away from a huge population of women? You realize that when you look away, you will have a hard to actually talking to them, to get to the real them? That you are prejudging them by their covers?

 

[Mustaphile]

Hmm...I have to ask this.
Are you doing anything to actually change the culture of sex that we live in? Do you respect every woman and man for their inside talents...do you never, ever judge a person by their outward appearance? Do you try to the change the culture from the inside, are you in the media, and gallantly plugging away at banishing the stereotypes? Are you fighting the culture of sex that dictates a woman's power is in sex, and that dressing sexy is super-normal? Or are you just saying you look away from a huge population of women? You realize that when you look away, you will have a hard to actually talking to them, to get to the real them? That you are prejudging them by their covers?

I'm somewhat lost in determining what your trying to express or gain from asking me these questions. I can only assume you are judging me unworthy in some aspect of my life, because I choose to not look at women who dress immodestly in deference to the feelings of a person that I love. Or perhaps you are reacting to my quip at the end of my statement, in which I have applied some speculation as to what might cause someone to dress immodestly and whether I think that's appropriate. I have no idea where your really coming from with regards to intent and in the absence of knowledge of that intent, I would decline to answer you questions in full. They seem to be assuming something about me that I am not so sure I really need to defend myself against. Take me as I am, or don't take me at all, is all I can say. Your approval or disapproval of my actions has no real bearing on how I live life. I can love all people but not like their actions. Perhaps that might clarify my position for you.

 

[Jetgirl]

Personally I have a need to not have skimpy women parade in front of me. I know I have my own battle to resist temptation, but it should be obvious that if a woman is wearing very sexy clothes it makes this harder for me. I am very vulnerable to these temptations--I admit this is a weakness for me. I'm just saying out of kindess or sensitivity it would be wonderful to think how your dress makes others feel. Sometimes it could embarrass people, injure people spiritually, repulse people in some cases. Why not be sensitive?

Basil

The problem with this argument, especially the part about "injuring people spiritually" is that, as time has shown, "sensitivity" doesn't work.

Even if I covered myself in a Burqa, as another poster suggested, I might be spiritually "injuring" or repulsing someone who thinks that women should not be seen outside the home.





/Aside/

Has anyone noticed that this argument is used almost exclusively by men? The "you're tempting me, so cover up" argument?

Why do I have to dress to suit the lowest common denominator because men seem to think they can't control themselves?

/Aside/