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modesty - again

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Athene

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These are fairly old article/blog posts but I thought their take on modesty is quite interesting.

Are Women Human? | Debunking complementarianism and other myths of gender | Page 3

How Creepy Conservative Christian Modesty Doctrines Harm Young Women | | AlterNet

The author of the second article makes some interesting points here

Everything about my life was governed by whether or not a man was watching. How I moved and what I ate or wore all depended on the male gaze. Modesty taught me that nothing I did mattered more than avoiding sexual attention. Modesty made me objectify myself. I was so aware of my own potential desirability at all times that I lost all other ways of defining myself. I couldn’t work out or get fit without worrying about attracting men. I couldn’t relax my eating habits for a moment lest my shirts start to pull a little in the chest. I couldn’t grow like a normal human adolescent because staying slim and sexless was the biggest priority in my world.

and here

It was my job to hide from men so that their sex drive would lie dormant, like a sleeping wolf. But if that wolf ever awakened, it was not because it had been sleeping for a long time and its circadian rhythm kicked in, or it was just naturally hungry. It was my fault because I had done something to “bait” the wolf. Just by being visibly female, or by moving in “unladylike” ways.
 

JRSut1000

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Well motivation always matters. If we obey God just out of fear, then our motivation is wrong. If we're modest out of fear of what others will think/feel/say, then again our motivation is wrong. But does this mean we dont obey God or that we remain immodest? Goodness no. We just change our stinkin thinking and obey God because we love Him and remain modest because it's the right thing to do! :)
 
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chaz345

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why does God want women to be modest? Why is remaining modest the right thing to do?
Because the type of attention they would attract, or the type of guy they would attract in being immodest, would likely not be in their best interests. IOW, God's call for women to be modest is for their own good as much as it is for the men.
 
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ImaginaryDay

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Clearly an attack on a doctrine you have no knowledge of. I spent the last 10 years (but no longer attend) in a Pentecostal denomination where the women (by choice) held to what you might call 'holiness' standards in their dress and how they presented themselves. And far from it being a burden to them, it was the most liberating thing in the world to them. They did not force this way on other women in the congregation, they merely held it up as a standard to emulate if others wanted to. Some did, some did not. Which was all well and fine with them. Some of them were the greatest Christian people I know and were more than willing to reach out to me in the love of Christ when I needed it. How they dressed was of no consequence to me when I needed something to eat.

As far as with the first blog, I would suggest that some of the other topics covered there would raise some serious red flags anyway. In one, the author of the blog identifies herself as an agnostic. Hardly sound counsel for a Christian audience.

IMO, there is enough resentment to go around toward those who hold to a 'holiness; standard so why throw logs on the fire. If that is their choice to live that way and not yours, what business is it to you?
 
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Sailor_A

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Clearly an attack on a doctrine you have no knowledge of. I spent the last 10 years (but no longer attend) in a Pentecostal denomination where the women (by choice) held to what you might call 'holiness' standards in their dress and how they presented themselves. And far from it being a burden to them, it was the most liberating thing in the world to them. They did not force this way on other women in the congregation, they merely held it up as a standard to emulate if others wanted to. Some did, some did not. Which was all well and fine with them. Some of them were the greatest Christian people I know and were more than willing to reach out to me in the love of Christ when I needed it. How they dressed was of no consequence to me when I needed something to eat.

As far as with the first blog, I would suggest that some of the other topics covered there would raise some serious red flags anyway. In one, the author of the blog identifies herself as an agnostic. Hardly sound counsel for a Christian audience.

IMO, there is enough resentment to go around toward those who hold to a 'holiness; standard so why throw logs on the fire. If that is their choice to live that way and not yours, what business is it to you?

Having been brought up in a Pentecostal denomination I have an entirely different opinion about the dress sense and that it is forced on people or maybe I should say just women. The worst thing was that some of it just was not thought out enough... regardless I was happy to escape that.
 
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JRSut1000

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Thats just the thing, when people encounter something negative they want to escape it all and go the other way. And its understandable but doesnt mean its right. There is still that thing called modesty. Should a forced 'dress code' be in place? No, probably not for such reasons as we've seen negatively. But dont discredit that modesty is still a good idea. (not saying you specifically sailor are doing that, Im just using the 'escape' thing as an example)
 
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Romanseight2005

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Personally like most things, there needs to be balance. I think we do need to be thoughtful enough to have a basic sense of modesty, and I think that needs to go for both males and females. That in no way however, should diminish a male's or female's responsibility for his/her own thoughts. Iow, being thoughtful enough to not contribute to another's lust, isn't the same thing as taking responsibility for it.

You know, there is a huge difference between wearing a mini skirt and tight low-cut blouse, and wearing sweats, so you can work out. I dress very modestly, but never in a way that limits my freedom. I generally stay away from tight clothes, so there is nothing that I can't do. I climb, swim, etc. What ,ales might be thinking is not constantly on my mind, but I do need to have some consideration, you know?
 
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Sailor_A

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These are fairly old article/blog posts but I thought their take on modesty is quite interesting.

Are Women Human? | Debunking complementarianism and other myths of gender | Page 3

How Creepy Conservative Christian Modesty Doctrines Harm Young Women | | AlterNet

The author of the second article makes some interesting points here



and here

This sounds somewhat like the church of my childhood. I'd say having strong parents who were not afraid of discussing with us things they didn't agree with helped me NOT to developed some of the issues mentioned.

I remember once we were trying to do a fundraising event where the "youth" had to run for money. They told the girls they had to wear skirts to run in :doh:. It was against health and safety to wear long skirts so basically you had all these teen girls running in miniskirts as opposed to trousers and that was meant to be more modest... insane.
 
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Sailor_A

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Thats just the thing, when people encounter something negative they want to escape it all and go the other way. And its understandable but doesnt mean its right. There is still that thing called modesty. Should a forced 'dress code' be in place? No, probably not for such reasons as we've seen negatively. But dont discredit that modesty is still a good idea. (not saying you specifically sailor are doing that, Im just using the 'escape' thing as an example)

On the other hand I think wanting to escape makes you think about why you are doing something and makes you stop doing things that make no sense. My particular church had such a skewed notion of modesty... I actually think dressing in a completely different manner would be more modest. Also they completely neglected the spirit of it. In the bible women were warned against wearing gold and braiding their hair not the length of their apparel. Some people I think came to church to show of their designer clothes, nails etc... when we should have been focusing on God and helping one another. The spirit of the message was lost and replaced with endless illogical rules.
 
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JaneFW

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I read just a little of the blogs. I have said any number of times that modesty is important for both genders, but that it's equally important that both genders respect each other enough not to be trying to sneak peeks, and not be trying to sexualize each other. Easier said than done! I also said that I won't wear a suit of armor or a burkha, because there comes a point where if a woman is dressed head to toe, with no low cleavage, or navel showing, and not wearing super tight clothes, then she has done absolutely the maximum she can do to keep her part of the bargain. However, that does NOT stop some men from checking out women's bodies, because there's the rub - women's bodies are sexualized. The media is obsessed with women and their bodies. It's truly pathetic. See if you can make a list of goods or luxuries that are marketed specifically with the use men or men's bodies that are not specifically manufactured for men.

As to why modesty is important, there are several reasons. In my environment, I want people to take me seriously. That doesn't happen if I wear trashy clothes. As a part of that, I want people focusing higher than my chest, preferably my face, while I am talking to them. True, the creeps will still look, but at least I know I didn't tempt them. I used to not care as much outside of work, and wore some scoop neck kind of tops, and then my husband once got very upset that a man was staring at my cleavage, and he asked me not to wear something like that again, so I did what he asked me to do. (It wasn't a command, rather a request. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar for sure.) And I don't wear those kind of shirts, and you know, I'm happier not to, because I agree that that part of me is private, and shouldn't be flashed to the world.

Also, raising sons, if I am the woman who forms their first perceptions of what a woman is, I want to be a woman who is decently covered, and doesn't flaunt it. Maybe they will chose a woman who flaunts anyway - I can't control that - but I am 'modeling' to them a woman who does not.

I do believe that as men and women we have equal responsibility. Him not to look, her not to put it on a plate so it's hard not to look.

Final "also" - it creeps me about when guys look at me in a sexual manner. Really. Big time. So the most I can do to discourage it - I will do.
 
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JaneFW

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What ,ales might be thinking is not constantly on my mind, but I do need to have some consideration, you know?
Yeah, what other males think is not constantly on my mind either. I dress to suit my body first, and then depending on whether it is business or casual, I dress to suit my husband or my workplace, in colors that suit me, in a style that suits me, and that is modest and - if possible - a bit funky, lol.

I don't know if you guys watch Project Runway, but the designer, Mondo, although some of his clothes are extreme, makes some of the most fabulous jackets and skirts I have ever seen. I would wear this in a heartbeat (especially the jacket, although I would not wear that stripey shirt with it, because you can only wear horizontal stripes if you are as flat as a pancake). So, this outfit, with a silky purple shirt that matched the interior of the jacket, or a cream one to match the line in the skirt. Hmm hmm hmm.

Mondo.jpg
 
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Romanseight2005

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Exactly Jane! We need to be reasonable, then after that, there is a point where it becomes oppression. The burkah, is definitely oppression! But I was thinking about something i the op about being afraid to work out because her shirt might slip up and show something,etc. See, that would never happen to me because when I work out, I wear long baggy t-shirt, and I do that strictly for comfort, but the side effect, is no skin shows. I also wear sweat pants, or long baggy shorts, so again showing skin isn't even a worry. The point is, you can be comfortable, without restrictions on freedom, while being modest. But it is equally important, as Jane said, to respect the opposite sex enough to not take those peaks, and to take responsibility for your own thoughts.
 
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Athene

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Because the type of attention they would attract, or the type of guy they would attract in being immodest, would likely not be in their best interests. IOW, God's call for women to be modest is for their own good as much as it is for the men.

the author of the second article says that the doctrine of modesty gave her issues about her body. At one time Christian women were encouraged to mutilate themselves in order to avoid inciting lust in men. Is this good for women?
 
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JaneFW

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the author of the second article says that the doctrine of modesty gave her issues about her body. At one time Christian women were encouraged to mutilate themselves in order to avoid inciting lust in men. Is this good for women?
When was this?

Obviously that's not good, but I have never heard of it. Can you link to some information or post some information?
 
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