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Modern Witchcraft

2PhiloVoid

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Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Well, of course! That one is a no-brainer. We all know that these days pharmaceuticals make the world go round ...

... duh! :dontcare:
 
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Lukaris

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What do you think about witchcraft, magic, and sorcery? Do you think it is used today? If so, how is it relevant to us Christians? Is there any room for Christians to dabble? If you don't think it has modern application, when did it become irrelevant?
I believe most people dabbling with magic have good intentions as far as treating others and living with nature. Christians should understand where they mean well but not adopt their practices.
 
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ViaCrucis

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What do you think about witchcraft, magic, and sorcery?

That it doesn't exist--it's never existed. It's crucial to understand what the Bible is saying when you see words translated into these in English translations. The problem is we moderns have a set of ideas about those terms that we then insert into Scripture. For example, in the New Testament there is a Greek word, pharmakeia, that is often translated as "witchcraft"; but does that mean that pharmakeia means what we think about when we hear the word "witchcraft"?

Well no. Pharmakeia, in a negative sense, likely referred to making elixirs or concoctions for use in ritual pagan worship/practice. The word is not inherently negative. Early Christians also used it in a positive sense.

St. Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Ephesians, when talking about the Lord's Supper, refers to it as φάρμακον ἀθανασια (pharmakon athanasia), "medicine of immortality".

In a positive sense this word simply refers to medicine or the making of medicine. Which is why we have words like pharmacy, pharmaceutical, pharmacology, etc.

Do you think it is used today? If so, how is it relevant to us Christians? Is there any room for Christians to dabble? If you don't think it has modern application, when did it become irrelevant?

In a modern context, since the early-mid 20th century there have been some various Neo-Pagan/Pagan Revival movements that have appeared, and such movements have taken terms like "witchcraft" and "magic" to refer to their ritual practices.

No, Christians should not dabble in Pagan religious rituals.

In the more fantastical sense of magic as some kind of real power, rather than just religious pagan or folk ritual, well that doesn't exist. Nobody is out here casting fireballs like in Dungeons & Dragons, or waving wands around like in Harry Potter causing actual stuff to happen.

Where things become problematic for Christians is when we, unwittingly, begin to insert magical and superstitious ideas into our religious beliefs and practices. For example, when we start to believe that our prayers are about forcing God to act, or we treat prayer like a kind of magic. Prayer is prayer, it submits us to God, it is about our ongoing relationship with God through our faith and hope in Him; that we depend on Him for our daily physical and spiritual sustenence, e.g. "Give to us our supersubstantial/daily bread" as we read in the Lord's Prayer; that by the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in our lives sanctifying us and conforming us to Christ we pray God's work and will, and that God strengthen us to live in accordance with Himself.

Prayer is not magic, it is to recognize ourselves as being on the receiving end of God's goodness and our total dependence upon Him, for everything.

There are other ways which we can fall into the trap of superstition and wrong ways of understanding God of course. The word "superstition" is derived via Latin translation of the Greek word deisidaimonia, in Christian writing this word refers to false religion, false spirituality. There are a lot of things, both historically and modern which can probably be classified as deisidaimonia--superstition. When Oral Roberts said that if he didn't get a million dollars God was going to kill him, he was being a grifter and a charlatan, but he was banking on his listeners to be superstitious, to have such a wrong-headed view about God that they would be gullible enough to believe such conartistry.

If you've ever been worried or seen someone that's worried about seeing three 6's next to each other or near each other--that's superstitious thinking. Numbers are just numbers. There is a contextual reason why John writes that the number of the beast is six hundred and sixty-six--and it has nothing to do with the number six (by itself, or repeated anywhere) having some innate power--that is superstition, that is deisidaimonia.

So superstition is a problem, it causes us to live in fear and dread rather than in hope and faith; it makes us believe all kinds of wrong things.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Divide

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Being the skeptic that I am, I'm not usually concerned about these things.

Thus......witchcraft, magic and sorcery is, if anything, best saved for a good time playing Dungeons and Dragons or watching a superhero flick (e.g. Doctor Strange), where it's all treated as it should be: as mostly fiction.

As I understand it, you have to be careful not to accidently open the door to demons. Some of the ways that you can do this you have listed as well as playing with ouiji boards or tarot cards. Even dream catchers invite them in and give them permission to be there. So I'd throw that stuff out.
 
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ViaCrucis

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As I understand it, you have to be careful not to accidently open the door to demons. Some of the ways that you can do this you have listed as well as playing with ouiji boards or tarot cards. Even dream catchers invite them in and give them permission to be there. So I'd throw that stuff out.

This kind of superstition is harmful. What you are saying is that things like board games, cards, and dream catchers are somehow stronger than Jesus Christ. As though Christ isn't sufficient, as though God's promises are insufficient to protect us from the enemy.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Wings like Eagles

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This kind of superstition is harmful. What you are saying is that things like board games, cards, and dream catchers are somehow stronger than Jesus Christ. As though Christ isn't sufficient, as though God's promises are insufficient to protect us from the enemy.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't think he said those games etc. were stronger than Jesus Christ, pretty sure you said that.
 
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Wings like Eagles

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I just love Bob Goff, what amazing work he is doing against witch doctors:

In November 2014, he and his team also started a mobile school in Gulu, Uganda, through which they travel into “the bush” to gather and educate witch doctors they otherwise would not meet. As part of the class, Goff takes the witch doctors up into the trees and together they complete a fun yet frightening ropes course. While 80 feet up in the air, Goff asks them to stop the violent acts they have committed, and sometimes, his requests come with a few harmless pushes.

 
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2PhiloVoid

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As I understand it, you have to be careful not to accidently open the door to demons. Some of the ways that you can do this you have listed as well as playing with ouiji boards or tarot cards. Even dream catchers invite them in and give them permission to be there. So I'd throw that stuff out.

And as I understand it, those things have no power at all. The power that is there is in the delusion that people should waste their time using them or relying upon them as methods of empowerment.

I guess the typical witch, sorcerer and/or ouiji board player hasn't figured out that eating cardboard doesn't really provide a good source of nutrition.
 
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Wings like Eagles

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Just amazing .... the trial that got Bob invited to the White House:

 
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ViaCrucis

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I don't think he said those games etc. were stronger than Jesus Christ, pretty sure you said that.

So if I said that owning a radio lets demons in, and we should therefore be scared of owning a radio because spooky demons are going to show up through radio waves. And yet, I'm a believer in Jesus, I have Christ who is my Lord, God, King, my Refuge and Strength--then even if--even if--demons are somehow showing up in radio waves. Why should I be afraid?

What can a demon do to me if I have Jesus Christ?

To suggest that certain objects somehow act as demonic channels is, first of all, a belief in magic which is un-Christian; but then to suggest that the Christian should now hold to a superstitious fear of certain objects, when Jesus Christ is our Lord and Strength in all things--that's saying these things are stronger than Jesus.

If I have Jesus, and even if demons are somehow using a board game, or a dvd player, or whatever random object, why should I--a Christian--be afraid of demons?

Last I checked, the devil already lost.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Divide

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This kind of superstition is harmful. What you are saying is that things like board games, cards, and dream catchers are somehow stronger than Jesus Christ. As though Christ isn't sufficient, as though God's promises are insufficient to protect us from the enemy.

-CryptoLutheran

Don't be ridiculous. How many Christians do you know that are witches on the side? Not many for sure so I must have been talking about unbelievers. Did you ever think of that?

Those type of things are how they suck you into it. It's a game at first and pretty soon they're casting spells on people or sacrificing animals.

Do you believe in anything? I hear you talk so much stuff down. Have you ever made a positive comment?

It is NOT superstition. You should get out more often if you think so. Get your head out of the sand.
 
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Divide

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So if I said that owning a radio lets demons in, and we should therefore be scared of owning a radio because spooky demons are going to show up through radio waves. And yet, I'm a believer in Jesus, I have Christ who is my Lord, God, King, my Refuge and Strength--then even if--even if--demons are somehow showing up in radio waves. Why should I be afraid?

You shouldn't be afraid if you believe in Jesus Christ because you should know that we have authority over demons and evil spirits.

I have never been to war of any kind, so therefore war does not exist and I should ignore it? Wow buddy, just wow.

And who said anything about radios, you did. WE are talking about Ouiji boards, tarot cards, and fring occult stuff like dream catchers. Are you suggesting (as a Christian) that we are making this stuff up? Don't be absurd.
 
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Divide

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To suggest that certain objects somehow act as demonic channels is, first of all, a belief in magic which is un-Christian; but then to suggest that the Christian should now hold to a superstitious fear of certain objects, when Jesus Christ is our Lord and Strength in all things--that's saying these things are stronger than Jesus.

You are the one trying to make it into a superstition. And no one told anyone to hold to a superstitious fear of inanimate objects. I (as a Christian) say, exercise your authority over dark spirits and be berean in your seeking knowledge from the Lord about demons and the occult and the authority of the Believer.

Shall we start getting biblical about it? I will chop you right down with scripture!
 
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Divide

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If I have Jesus, and even if demons are somehow using a board game, or a dvd player, or whatever random object, why should I--a Christian--be afraid of demons?

Last I checked, the devil already lost.

Nobody said to be afraid. Do not fear is the single most repeated bible phrase in the entire bible. You are a Christian and do not know these things? How is that?
 
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Divide

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And as I understand it, those things have no power at all. The power that is there is in the delusion that people should waste their time using them or relying upon them as methods of empowerment.

I guess the typical witch, sorcerer and/or ouiji board player hasn't figured out that eating cardboard doesn't really provide a good source of nutrition.

They don't have power. They are gateway activities which may give evil spirits permission to operate in your life and home.

Relying on them as methods of empowerment? Are you serious? Are you in the occult? It sure sounds like it.

If your just a skeptical dumb kid wanting to play then understand that playing the game that does not bring glory to God is an invitation to demons and a rebellion against God. Whether you believe it or not.

So I again advise, throw that trash out. Put your confidence in the Lord God alone.
 
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Divide

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This kind of superstition is harmful. What you are saying is that things like board games, cards, and dream catchers are somehow stronger than Jesus Christ. As though Christ isn't sufficient, as though God's promises are insufficient to protect us from the enemy.

-CryptoLutheran

So what is it that you are saying? That if you profess christianity that it's ok to play with Ouiji boards?

That's ridiculous.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I have some mixed feelings. We all know that we can get into trouble just innocently walking down the wrong street. We can pick up a virus at church. Dangers are out there and real whether we "let them in" or try to avoid them. Does that mean we should live in fear? NO!

The biggest danger though, is not what can happen to our bodies but what can happen to our affections, our desires, our mood, values and attitudes that then manifest in our behaviors.
 
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