Modern Theories of Creationism?

[Notedstrangeperson]

A while ago down in the Society section, I asked whether it was possible to prove creationism without disproving evolution (link). Unfortunately it descended into yet another typical atheists vs. creationists squabble and never really when anywhere.

So this time I'll only ask other Christians: do you think it is possible to prove there that a supernatural being created and guided life on Earth, without disproving evolutionary theory?

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One (extremely shaky) theory could possibly be epigenetics. It is not creationism in the traditional sense, because it has nothing to do with God creating everything in its modern form ex-nihilo 6,000 years ago. It would however prove that evolution is not actually "blind", and that our genes are actively react to our environment.

This of course only applies if we think that epigenetic changes can be passed on from generation to generation, and the evidence for that is rather sparse.

I also have a theory on aliens but I've blathered on about that before.

 

[disciple1938]

do you think it is possible to prove there that a supernatural being created and guided life on Earth, without disproving evolutionary theory?

No; if you mean evolution as it is tought in classrooms. On the other hand I do think you can have life created by a superrior being and left to evolve via natural forces yet while being guided. I see the problem being the use of the word "evolution" because of the connetation connected with it. There might be less confusion and conflict if another word was adopted. Because only a blind person could seriously clain that evolution of some kind does not exist. You can watch it happen with something as simple as a jar of fruit flies. But I can't see how it could happen to start life because everything we know tells us life comes from life. So there had to be somthing living to start life on earth. Either a Creator (supernatural like God), or life from another place (natural alien beings from another planet for example), or (as I believe probabl), that the entire cosmos is alive and conscious. It would take too much space to elaborate, so this is an oversimplification of my thoughts on this.

 

[troodon]

A while ago down in the Society section, I asked whether it was possible to prove creationism without disproving evolution (link). Unfortunately it descended into yet another typical atheists vs. creationists squabble and never really when anywhere.

So this time I'll only ask other Christians: do you think it is possible to prove there that a supernatural being created and guided life on Earth, without disproving evolutionary theory?

----------------------------------------------------------

One (extremely shaky) theory could possibly be epigenetics. It is not creationism in the traditional sense, because it has nothing to do with God creating everything in its modern form ex-nihilo 6,000 years ago. It would however prove that evolution is not actually "blind", and that our genes are actively react to our environment.

This of course only applies if we think that epigenetic changes can be passed on from generation to generation, and the evidence for that is rather sparse.

I also have a theory on aliens but I've blathered on about that before.

I don't think it would ever be possible to prove that God created life or interfered with its development. The best you could hope for would be the discovery of some mechanism or process in an organism whose natural evolution truly has no satisfactory explanation. But even then you're making an argument based on ignorance ("we don't know how therefore...") and that will never gain scientific traction. Plus that kind of breaks your rule as a truly irreducibly complex system would falsify evolution, at least as we know it.

I suppose I have to make an exception for the possibility that God put something in nature, like in the genome of a frog somewhere, that unambiguously carries some sort of divine message. I'm not talking Bible Code here, I mean something really straightforward and compelling. Of course it's not really in God's nature to come flat out and demonstrate to the world that He exists, so I find this idea rather unlikely even if He did really drive evolution to some degree on this planet.

 

[SkyWriting]

...as a truly irreducibly complex system would falsify evolution, at least as we know it.

Its impossible to create such a system. The complexity of life alone is enough to show that it can't be natural yet it is accepted as natural. The existence of life is completely unnatural, yet any person will tell you "But we are here, so it's not impossible".

Clearly nothing can convince the person who refuses to believe in God. They are too cool for that.

 

[troodon]

Its impossible to create such a system. The complexity of life alone is enough to show that it can't be natural yet it is accepted as natural. The existence of life is completely unnatural, yet any person will tell you "But we are here, so it's not impossible".

Clearly nothing can convince the person who refuses to believe in God. They are too cool for that.

You're attempting to draw me into exactly the sort of argument that the OP asked that we avoid.

 

[SkyWriting]

You're attempting to draw me into exactly the sort of argument that the OP asked that we avoid.

Sorry. I neglected to read it first, so I'll get right to it.

1. Life is impossible.

Only the lamest of any lame argument has ever been made in the history of lameness;
"But it happened here." This goes to show that refusers will always refuse no matter
how lost the cause.

2. Non-living matter does not form life under any circumstances ever.

Completely testable and scientifically correct, but rejected non-the-less. (See #1.)

3. The Law of Entropy shows that disorder will increase over time.

So an increase in order and energy is impossible but....(see #1)
The usual counter is babble about open systems. I consider the Cosmos to be a closed system.
The only thing "outside" our Cosmos would be God. If people wish to claim the Cosmos is open
to God's influence from the outside, then it's an "open system" that fits their compliant just perfectly.

4. Energy decreases in magnitude and usefulness over time.

Basically all the laws of nature rally against life and evolution's Theory of Origins, but science
doesn't care about reality because of ....(see #1) (Sorry, this shows why the "Anti" stand comes up.)

 

[SkyWriting]

I also have a theory on aliens but I've blathered on about that before.

Nothing wrong with blaming aliens. It's the logical solution
after other attempt's at biogenesis theory fail.

Can I say "sperm" here if I use it in a theory? Bless you and don't curse.

Transpermia: Did Earth's life originate on the planet Mars? - National astrobiology | Examiner.com

Transpermia - microbes hitch a ride between planets

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Nothing wrong with blaming aliens. It's the logical solution
after other attempt's at biogenesis theory fail.

Can I say "sperm" here if I use it in a theory? Bless you and don't curse.

Transpermia: Did Earth's life originate on the planet Mars? - National astrobiology | Examiner.com

Transpermia - microbes hitch a ride between planets

Transpermia or Raelism (life being created on Earth by aliens) weren't the particular theories I had in mind. My idea was simply that if we discover aliens on another planet, and it turns out they are very similar or identical to us, that could prove creationism. I suppose you could contribute the similarities to convergent evolution but that's too big a stretch for me.

That was my original idea. After a bit of thought I've decided that even aliens which are extremely different to us could, in theory, prove some form of creationism.

 

[dysert]

A while ago down in the Society section, I asked whether it was possible to prove creationism without disproving evolution (link). Unfortunately it descended into yet another typical atheists vs. creationists squabble and never really when anywhere.

So this time I'll only ask other Christians: do you think it is possible to prove there that a supernatural being created and guided life on Earth, without disproving evolutionary theory?

----------------------------------------------------------

One (extremely shaky) theory could possibly be epigenetics. It is not creationism in the traditional sense, because it has nothing to do with God creating everything in its modern form ex-nihilo 6,000 years ago. It would however prove that evolution is not actually "blind", and that our genes are actively react to our environment.

This of course only applies if we think that epigenetic changes can be passed on from generation to generation, and the evidence for that is rather sparse.

I also have a theory on aliens but I've blathered on about that before.

I don't think it's possible to prove creationism, regardless of evolution. Creation was a supernatural one-time event that occurred a long time ago. It can't be tested; it can't be repeated; it can only be inferred. And for those who already don't believe in the supernatural, it's a lost cause to even try proving it.

I don't believe in aliens either, so what do I know ;-)

 

[Aman777]

I don't think it's possible to prove creationism, regardless of evolution. Creation was a supernatural one-time event that occurred a long time ago. It can't be tested; it can't be repeated; it can only be inferred. And for those who already don't believe in the supernatural, it's a lost cause to even try proving it.

Dear dysert, It is possible to prove Creationism by examining the advanced scientific concepts revealed in Genesis. It is NOT possible to prove that the traditional religious account is true, simply because it isn't.

God is the most advanced Being in existence and He exposes His supreme intelligence in His writing, just as all of us reveal ourselves in our writing. There are several examples of this in Genesis. God correctly shows that He created the heaven (air) and the earth (land) but Scripture does not claim water was created at this time. This is because water comes from oxygen and hydrogen in the air or atmosphere. IF an ancient man had written Genesis 1:1-2, he would have simply said that in the beginning God created the air, land, and water. God knew better and correctly shows that the creation of the gases in the atmosphere produces water.

God shows that the beginning of our Universe took place on the 3rd day, the SAME day the earth was made. Genesis 2:4 This revelation is STILL beyond the knowledge of today's Science. God also shows that "every living creature that moveth" was created and brought forth from the water on the 5th day. Genesis 1:21 Without liquid water, the cells within us could not possibly survive.

So look for the agreement of God's Holy Word with the latest scientific discoveries, and you will find them detailed in the Bible. It's PROOF of God.

In Love,
Aman

 

[juvenissun]

A while ago down in the Society section, I asked whether it was possible to prove creationism without disproving evolution (link). Unfortunately it descended into yet another typical atheists vs. creationists squabble and never really when anywhere.

So this time I'll only ask other Christians: do you think it is possible to prove there that a supernatural being created and guided life on Earth, without disproving evolutionary theory?

----------------------------------------------------------

One (extremely shaky) theory could possibly be epigenetics. It is not creationism in the traditional sense, because it has nothing to do with God creating everything in its modern form ex-nihilo 6,000 years ago. It would however prove that evolution is not actually "blind", and that our genes are actively react to our environment.

This of course only applies if we think that epigenetic changes can be passed on from generation to generation, and the evidence for that is rather sparse.

I also have a theory on aliens but I've blathered on about that before.

The content of creationism is "in the Bible". Recognize the literal truth of the Bible is the best way to positively support creationism.

For example, do you believe plants are created on Day 3 before the sun is created on Day 4?

 

[dysert]

Dear dysert, It is possible to prove Creationism by examining the advanced scientific concepts revealed in Genesis. It is NOT possible to prove that the traditional religious account is true, simply because it isn't.

God is the most advanced Being in existence and He exposes His supreme intelligence in His writing, just as all of us reveal ourselves in our writing. There are several examples of this in Genesis. God correctly shows that He created the heaven (air) and the earth (land) but Scripture does not claim water was created at this time. This is because water comes from oxygen and hydrogen in the air or atmosphere. IF an ancient man had written Genesis 1:1-2, he would have simply said that in the beginning God created the air, land, and water. God knew better and correctly shows that the creation of the gases in the atmosphere produces water.

God shows that the beginning of our Universe took place on the 3rd day, the SAME day the earth was made. Genesis 2:4 This revelation is STILL beyond the knowledge of today's Science. God also shows that "every living creature that moveth" was created and brought forth from the water on the 5th day. Genesis 1:21 Without liquid water, the cells within us could not possibly survive.

So look for the agreement of God's Holy Word with the latest scientific discoveries, and you will find them detailed in the Bible. It's PROOF of God.

In Love,
Aman

At the outset, please note that I am a Bible-believing Christian. However, I respectfully disagree with your opinion that one can prove creationism. If it could be (like gravity), then virtually everyone on earth would know it to be true.

In your post, you start out with the *assumption* that God exists. There is no proof that this is true. You then go on to assert that since the Bible mentions the creation of air and land before the creation of water, that it somehow proves creationism to be true. That's a huge and unjustified leap in logic.

I'm not here to argue or debate. I just want to be intellectually honest about what's in the Bible and what can be proven. You can't prove the supernatural. Besides, I think the whole creationist/evolutionist thing is way overblown. It distracts us from the primary message of the Bible, which is to point to Christ.

 

[Aman777]

Juv:>>The content of creationism is "in the Bible". Recognize the literal truth of the Bible is the best way to positively support creationism.

For example, do you believe plants are created on Day 3 before the sun is created on Day 4?

Dear Juv, Of course. Genesis 1:9-10 tell us the plants and trees grew on the 3rd Day on the first earth. The beginning of our second heaven also began on the 3rd Day. Genesis 2:4. Then the Stars of our Cosmos appeared on the 4th Day. This had nothing to do with the scriptural fact that plants on the first earth appeared before the Stars of our world.

BTW, Science has learned that the first Stars did NOT appear at the Big Bang, but several million years later. Can you tell us HOW ancient man could have written this fact 3k years ago? Of course not. Only God could have authored Genesis, and correctly shown that the BB was on the 3rd Day but the stars didn't light up until the 4th Day.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Aman777]

dysert:>>At the outset, please note that I am a Bible-believing Christian. However, I respectfully disagree with your opinion that one can prove creationism. If it could be (like gravity), then virtually everyone on earth would know it to be true.

Dear dysert, I too am a born again, Bible-believing Christian. I disagree that virtually everyone on earth would agree if creationism could be proven. It's proven decisively in Genesis by the scientific facts which have only recently been discovered. No ancient man could have possibly written Genesis and got the latest scientific facts correct.

dysert:>>In your post, you start out with the *assumption* that God exists. There is no proof that this is true. You then go on to assert that since the Bible mentions the creation of air and land before the creation of water, that it somehow proves creationism to be true. That's a huge and unjustified leap in logic.

My point is that God authored Scripture from inside the ancient men who penned His words. Only God knew that water came from the gases in the air, at the time.

dysert:>>I'm not here to argue or debate. I just want to be intellectually honest about what's in the Bible and what can be proven. You can't prove the supernatural. Besides, I think the whole creationist/evolutionist thing is way overblown. It distracts us from the primary message of the Bible, which is to point to Christ.

I agree. Scripture does too. It tells us that unless we have been born Spiritually, we cannot understand the Spiritual, and God is Spirit and Truth. Jesus is LORD and unless one believes His Gospel, they are lost, and unable to discern the Spiritual.

In Love,
Aman

 

[SkyWriting]

Transpermia or Raelism (life being created on Earth by aliens) weren't the particular theories I had in mind. My idea was simply that if we discover aliens on another planet, and it turns out they are very similar or identical to us, that could prove creationism. I suppose you could contribute the similarities to convergent evolution but that's too big a stretch for me.

That was my original idea. After a bit of thought I've decided that even aliens which are extremely different to us could, in theory, prove some form of creationism.

Not in any theological sense. God sent His Only Son to save mankind.
Those other kinds would not have any access to eternal life and would be an expensive food source for us due to large shipping costs.

 

[troodon]

Transpermia or Raelism (life being created on Earth by aliens) weren't the particular theories I had in mind. My idea was simply that if we discover aliens on another planet, and it turns out they are very similar or identical to us, that could prove creationism. I suppose you could contribute the similarities to convergent evolution but that's too big a stretch for me.

That was my original idea. After a bit of thought I've decided that even aliens which are extremely different to us could, in theory, prove some form of creationism.

That would be strong evidence of a common force guiding evolution, though it wouldn't necessarily have to be divine. As ID supporters are quick to point out "hey! we could be talking about aliens here!" You would, however, probably see a strong wave of naturalistic teleology in response to this discovery.

Even better evidence would be if each alien species had their own version of a redemption sacrifice, like Christ for us, but (again) maybe the aliens who engineered this whole thing also arranged for that.

 

[ChetSinger]

A while ago down in the Society section, I asked whether it was possible to prove creationism without disproving evolution (link). Unfortunately it descended into yet another typical atheists vs. creationists squabble and never really when anywhere.

So this time I'll only ask other Christians: do you think it is possible to prove there that a supernatural being created and guided life on Earth, without disproving evolutionary theory?

Hello!

Last month I read a couple of posts by Mark Kennedy where he said that every Christian is a creationist. After some reflection, I agree with that statement because of passages like this:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The Word was with God in the beginning All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

God claims credit for the creation of the physical universe. So if we believe the Bible, we believe God did that. We may disagree on the when, and the how, but we agree that he created it. Because he says so.

2,000 years ago Paul wrote:

For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.

Is this still true? I believe it is. If you're a believer in long ages and evolution, and are looking for a place for God in that history, one place I suggest looking is biology and genetics.

In particular, I suggest studying subjects like abiogenesis, the innate complexity of even the simplest cell, and the vast amount of information that comprises our own DNA. Useful information is out there, and not just on Christian sites. I've seen recent scientific efforts such as the Minimal Genome Project and the ENCODE Consortium only strengthen the case for God's design.

For example, did you know that DNA conducts electricity? It does, and one of our DNA repair mechanisms takes advantage of that fact. It works like this: two proteins clamp down on a portion of DNA, and one of them fires an electron at the other. If the electron gets there, the DNA is undamaged and disconnects. But if it doesn't, the protein walks down the DNA until it reaches the damage and then repairs it. Repair functions like this are necessary because the DNA in our cells can suffer damage multiple times each second.

The more we learn of biology, the more complicated it is. This is a field where religion isn't battling science; rather, religion is battling philosophy, for there is no science that creates life from non-life.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Last month I read a couple of posts by Mark Kennedy where he said that every Christian is a creationist.

Yes, every Christian is a creationist in the sense that we all believe in a creator. I'm using "creation" in the same loose sense.

Not in any theological sense. God sent His Only Son to save mankind.
Those other kinds would not have any access to eternal life and would be an expensive food source for us due to large shipping costs.

Even better evidence would be if each alien species had their own version of a redemption sacrifice, like Christ for us, but (again) maybe the aliens who engineered this whole thing also arranged for that.

I doubt that the fact they would not have heard of Jesus means anything. After all, Australian aboriginies, native Americans, south Africans, Indians and East Asians had never heard of Christ before Europeans came along. That doesn't mean that they aren't related to us, or that they weren't meant to hear about Jesus. Believe it or not I've actually heard other users use that argument ...

Of course, this is assuming they have a level of intelligence similar to our own. For the majority of Earth's history, life consisted of little more than single-celled organisms.

 

[Papias]

NSP wrote:

So this time I'll only ask other Christians: do you think it is possible to prove there that a supernatural being created and guided life on Earth, without disproving evolutionary theory?

Possible? Sure.

For instance, we know that a lot of our genome, like any other creatures, is not helpful. What if, in the middle of a bunch of ERVs, we found, say, John 1 written in binary?

However, I think you mean, in your question "do you think it is possible with the current evidence available, to prove that a supernatural being created and guided life on earth, without disproving evolution."

For that, I think the question needs to be reframed - I think that the natural world, it's laws and the wonder of our universe all speak to a God, as per Heb 1:3. I think that once we accept the distinction between "supernatural" and "natural", we've lost. There is no "supernatural" vs. "natural", it's all God.

Papias

P. S. That's part of why I think YEC's are doing so much to advance atheism (more than the atheists could ever dream of doing themselves), because they are teaching Christians to confine God to supernatural parlor tricks, and suggesting that God disappears otherwise. That's exactly what the atheists want taught.

 

[Assyrian]

NSP wrote:

Possible? Sure.

For instance, we know that a lot of our genome, like any other creatures, is not helpful. What if, in the middle of a bunch of ERVs, we found, say, John 1 written in binary?

Would God have to have used ASCII code? (Just wondering )