MJ and Paul

[alaurie]

Are there conflicting views among Messianics about Paul's status as an apostle or false prophet? I've not studied this issue much at all but feel some unease at times (grew up Southern Baptist :o ) at some of his words- very subjective really. If anyone has any good scholarly answers or links regarding him from a Messianic perspective, I'd appreciate them.
Allye

ps I apologize for the spelling in my signature. I can't change it from this edit screen.

 

[simchat_torah]

Messianic Judaism is a bit torn on the subject, with the larger part of the body accepting Paul's letters and the minority declaring him heretical.

 

[koilias]

The problem with Paul is that we don't know the other half of the conversation. We really only see one sided monologue. The best Pauline scholarship always seeks to be sensitive first and foremost to understanding his audience. In Jewish terms his letters might be considered Gemara to Mishna, but we don't see the opposing or complementary views so understanding Paul remains problematic. He certainly was not a heretic however, and those who say so are reading arguments foreign to Paul's theology mostly based on the heretical beliefs that they have already formulated beforehand, which is the problem with Pauline scholarship since the death of Paul's generation.

Paul is just one voice in the tremendously colorful and varied landscape of first century Christianity. He should be considered one Rabbi among many others and not one of the most adept (such as Yeshua). Just my 2 cents.

The pre-eminent sages of the N.T. are Yeshua, Yacob and Yohannan. These three are extremely creative and incisive, thorough masters of Rabbinics. The writer of Hebrews is a good Alexandrian sage, in the tradition of Philo, but not thoroughly adept at Rabbinics. Paul, Jude and Kephas are decent, but only second-rate sages...they are quite simply good and faithful talmidim.

 

[simchat_torah]

Wise words Koilias

I do not see a problem with Paul, but rather our understanding of his level of writing. Couple this with with the idea that we don't know the questions being asked, only the answers, we are left with quite a mess on our hands to interpret.

Those who are ready to dismiss him obviously have not done their homework. He was spoken of, in his own day, as "difficult to understand". This was said by people 2,000 years ago, in his culture, speaking his language, who knew him intimately, and most likely had read hundreds of his letters (we have but a handful today). He wrote in a highly Rabbinic style focusing quite a bit on the 7 rules Hillel, and of course Mishnaic/Gamaraic styles. So, not only are we lacking in every way that the original believers excelled, we also are typically not masters of the Rabbinic Jewish form of Hermaneutics! Not to mention, on top of it all, we don't even see the questions that were asked in which he responed to.

And yet there are people who claim to be "authorities" of Paul? lol... gimme a break.


shalom,
yafet

 

[Henaynei]

A couple of very helpful books I might suggest:

The Letter Writer
Paul's Background and Torah Perspective
Tim Hegg
ISBN 1-892124-16-5

Romans
Commentary on the Jewish roots of
Joseph Shulam
ISBN 1-880226-69-3

 

[alaurie]

He certainly was not a heretic however, and those who say so are reading arguments foreign to Paul's theology mostly based on the heretical beliefs that they have already formulated beforehand, which is the problem with Pauline scholarship since the death of Paul's generation.

Paul is just one voice in the tremendously colorful and varied landscape of first century Christianity. He should be considered one Rabbi among many others and not one of the most adept (such as Yeshua). Just my 2 cents.

The pre-eminent sages of the N.T. are Yeshua, Yacob and Yohannan. These three are extremely creative and incisive, thorough masters of Rabbinics. The writer of Hebrews is a good Alexandrian sage, in the tradition of Philo, but not thoroughly adept at Rabbinics. Paul, Jude and Kephas are decent, but only second-rate sages...they are quite simply good and faithful talmidim.

Thanks all, especially koilias, for giving me perspective. In my culture, bible-belt protestant southern US, he seems sometimes almost deified. I think this presentation may explain some of my aversion to him.

Allye

 

[simchat_torah]

Brad Young's book... Paul the Jewish Theologian is another excellent read, and I always reccomend it because it is written in very simplistic language.

 

[visionary]

Excellent statements....simchat-torah and henaynei ......but where is one to get their hands on such books.??

 

[Henaynei]

Excellent statements....simchat-torah and henaynei ......but where is one to get their hands on such books.??

try a web search - there are several places and some will surprise you

Amazon.com
Barnes and Noble
CenturyOne.com
Jerusalem Perspective

et al - just put in either the book name, or author or ISBN and you will have numerous choices and be able to choose the best price

Brad H. Young is the author of Paul, the Jewish Theologian