Mixed Messages.....

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

And how exactly would you answer someone with the questions that you posed. Just curious.

Sorry if you already did this - I haven't followed the whole thread.

Considering it becomes impossible to have coherent conversation where too many derails have occurred, Moriah can't say that it blames you.

Will see if it can dig up some of the more meatier posts here and link them to save you some time MVA.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Highlights from the first round of discussion after the OP:

Some people starve to death, some don't..... some people are killed in crashes, some aren't..... how do you explain that?

so your explanation would be that not only does God choose not to protect, He also allows the Devil to kill people.... interesting indeed....

Are you suggesting that "this" is the answer?

Not sure I would blame anyone who decides to "not" accept such a fickle god......

I am not sure what the answer is Stormy, I do know we lie about HIM a lot....

We have not gotten the right idea about HIM and some times we run what has always been said instead of making sure we got it right and or have made sure it makes sense.....

BTJMO.....

not much comfort for those being beat down, homeless, or losing life and limb..... Satan..... I suspect because of some of the answers that have been offered so far that people ignore what christians have to say.....

I agree God is selective. But that in noway suggest that God does not care or is not watching. And I am comfortable with that Idea. Its just that God is seeking to bring us to a better place. Some do suffer more than others in this world. Some of us have a harder cross to bear and this present world is not our home. Its about the inner man and his relationship with God. The conditions and situations of this world only strengthen or weaken a persons faith in God. So while we all suffer, the suffering is for a purpose, and is not left un-noticed by God.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

: Catching Up (Part 2)

It depends what you mean by sin. Separation? The manifest, opposite polarity of light? A cosmic virus? Action against divine will? Incompleteness?

Well, they share qualities, but are not at all identical. For instance, a cosmology, like polarities existing below the line of creation, is highly systemic. Slamming the door in someone's face is highly discrete. But the latter doesn't necessarily stem from the former. You might have slammed the door to save their life - but they still have a broken nose, and may or may not ever know the root of the action.

This is important, because many of the things we have done that appeared to be in alignment with Divine Will were not - we couldn't see all that the particular action was connected to from our limited perspective.

As you suggested, many of the mysterious happenings attributed to the gods by various peoples are now well-understood in other ways. This is still true regarding the role of Satan. We haven't come all that far.

Here's an example demonstrating this ambiguity.

HURRICANE KATRINA

1. Caused by God to punish gays.

2. Caused by sin - or Satan.

3. Caused by low pressure areas and rising water vapor.

Some answers seem to suggest that a loving God allows suffering so that those who get through it will appreciate "heaven." Other answers seem to suggest that God allows satan to have his way with humanity, though I am not sure way..... In essence the answers seem to suggestGod is a sadist i.e. He is delighted when humans suffer.....

Glad to hear your not an atheist!

I guess I gave you a brief synopsis of how I view God and the suffering in this world.

As far as what some Christians may say about God, as in your quotes, I take no responsibility. Christianity has gone too far towards pop psychiatry and platitudes as far as I am concerned. A lot of what is written is cute or comforting, but theologically vacant.
I guess I don't feel the need to reconcile what others make up.
God bless! Ricker

So do you think then that all our experience bes purely subjective in this regard? Whether God protects us or not?

You have great courage to raise these questions Stormy.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Catching Up Part 3: Some good meaty comments by BFA and Stormy ...

Actually? No.
Separation face to face ensued as part of the act of creation itself. To make man, God had to separate, and make something alive and sentient what bes Not-God.
Separation back to back ensued after they ate the fruit and tasted the flavor of their own unbelief. Immediately they no longer trusted Him, and hid.

The manifest, opposite polarity of light would be darkness, which itself bes created by God. The act of creating light also creates darkness, the concept of what we have where light bes not. God created it, so it cannot be "sin".

A cosmic virus ensued when pain and confusion first arose in Lucifer's experience. Sin truly has no explanation, not even the rebellion of Lucifer because sin CAUSED Lucifer to rebel. The virus spontaneously mutated into existence at the Wrong from the Beginning. (Can go into more detail on this if anyone bes interested but that would be too long for this post)

Action against Divine Will -- you bes kidding right? Does anyone really have so much unbelief that they imagine such a critter even EXISTS in this universe? The entire creation bes subject to God and as such, to His will, period, whether it appears to be so or not, whether we like what we see when we say that or not. Action against Divine Will simply cannot exist, period. Action against Divine Ideal? Of course. That would be .......... Incompleteness. And so we come full circle.

thanks Moriah for your comments, you have understood the issues I have raised.....loving parents will not stand by and watch as their child (or children) are harmed or traumatized. Loving parents will not give permission for another person to deliberately harm or kill their children..... yet christians have no problem (apparently) believing that God (Our Father) will do just that.... so there has to be some theological or mental gymnastics to reconcile these two concepts....

I agree. However, I note that you've raised some of life's most difficult questions. I suspect that none of us can form coherent responses to them that accurately capture who God is or explain why He does what He does. I would suspect that even if you were to attempt to answer the questions in your OP, your answer would fall short. So perhaps we're all in the same boat when it comes to some of these big questions. We don't understand as much as we think we do.

BFA

true, I don't have the answers, but I like to explore the issues.... my point remains though, there are things that people say about God which are not true given what we see around us..... for those who are experiencing suffering, it would be callous to suggest that they have not prayed for relief only to find none... Did God not hear their cries? See their tears? Watch as their lives have been damaged sometimes to the point that normality is only a dream?

I certainly don't mean to downplay the point you're making. It is a valuable point.

Rather, I'm merely suggesting that, if anyone does attempt to answer your questions, we realize that such attempt is going to fall short in some way. After all, we're grappling with some things we don't fully understand. And yet we have faith, even though we don't understand.

BFA

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Catching up, some stuff previously posted by MCW

Maybe not an answer ... but an understanding?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkwIYzp8Sok

Have any of YOU ever had -- literally -- "the sacred TORN from your life -- and you survive" -?????

Because Moriah has, in the most literal and visceral and all-encompassing way possible.

He never intended us to eat from the tree that created dualism.

And now, for a response to the song above............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHdcyue0bSw

seriously what else you gonna do? His hand strikes down, His hand raises up. He bes God, we bes not. We have everything in existence we could possibly want or need including darkness and delight and danger if you want that kind of thing, what MORE could He do? A REAL world not a video game one. Where lives count and matter because they can be lost so easily. Where every fiber in the tapestry of reality spells a new lesson, fresh wine for a fresh wineskin.

What would be your explanation, then? That those who have suffered deserved to?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Catching up: comments on "sin", dualism, sovereignty and theodicy:

There is a creative tension between the state something is in and the more whole state it is moving toward. That it is incomplete does not mean that it is sinful. It's easy to mistake something that is uncomfortable for something that is bad.

I suspect Heaven isn't easy peasy.

Do you mean in the Bible? In Christianity? This is not true in many places - here's one.

Yin Yang - opposites are complementary and contained in one another. This is why there's a little bit of black inside of the white half - and a little bit of white inside the black half.

We don't say the negative terminal (black) of a car battery is bad - it's complementary with the positive terminal (white). This is the nature of polarity.

Please explain how sin causes natural disasters and accidents. Please. We would really like to know. You cannot expect any rational mind to believe for one second that everyone caught in a disaster has somehow sinned their way there and earned it. Because if you contend that, we haves scriptures to cut right through that lie.

The problem of Theodicy, it has recently learned, bes the only argument atheists claim to fully demonstrate and prove that God does not exist. Other arguments merely propose to show that belief in God bes unnecessary or pointless or whatever but the theodicial one goes the full distance.

Can't remember the exact words for it but it bes framed as a series of four statements about which if any single one of them bes not true it means God cannot exist, and only 3 of them can be true without negating the fourth or something like that (sorry cant remember exact wording). One of the statements asserts there bes a God. Another asserts omnipotence, another asserts omni-benevolence, can't recall the fourth (if remembering correctly here and there bes 4, not 3).

It functions similar to the triangle of expectations, which says you can have 2 of these 3 but not all three: fast, cheap, good (you can have it fast & cheap, won't be good; you can have it good & cheap, won't be fast; you can have it fast & good, but won't be cheap!)

For a theist the argument can be circumvented by arguing back that the premise bes flawed (based on a specific understanding of God and/or not taking into account other nuances, etc.) but given the parameters of basic theism the argument holds pretty sound (unfortunately for theists).

The more I read the more I wonder........

Stormy, thanks again for bringing this up..........

Avonia, thank you, you indeed bring a breath of fresh air......

Moriah, you are a awesome, I love it! keep it coming.........

Aza.... you are something else..........

I dd not intend to purposefuly single out ONLY certain contributors to this "discussion..."

I just noticed that some things just do NOT make much sense to the "un-churched"....... or the "un-christian..."

Some of the "explanations" are exactly the reason some of our bro/sis prefer to be as far away from "us" as they can.......

I just want to add that HE created BOTH black/white, dark/light and pronounced them BOTH............

Ready.....................?


Here it comes.....................






G O O D!!!

Would it be arrogant at all to suggest that for some questions, those not directly experiencing the ramifications thereof, nor having genuine heart-wrung compassion toward those who do, should politely leave for others to wrestle instead of offering the same tiresome and detached platitudes -- and embroiling themselves in judgment of another's character, motives, intents, whatever, in the process -- which in turn comes across as calloused and abusive toward those affected and afflicted?

Or would it be more accurate to state that these questions affect us all because to some degree everyone has been afflicted, everyone has tasted suffering?

Not aimed @ BFA, just musing here. Well aware its own answers fall drastically short but then again being stuck trying to explain that God has ordained you to be the Habitation of Demons and on rare blessed occasions you actually find yourself not only totally OK with that but awestruck in love toward Him that He would make you of all women most blessed? That just gets too many flavors of weird for most ppls to parse what bes not extreme mystics with head in the spirit realm nearly 24/7 themselves.

Walking apocalypse and IJ process in a sense, living portal to both realms, just wish others could put it to better use than they do. Most think it exists for being spat upon, scathed and reviled. What a waste of God's handiwork. What a loss of opportunity for them, too.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

More from Stormy:

RND you have sidestepped the issue.... the issue is simple, Christians say God will take care of you, that you can trust God, yet we see daily horrific suffering.... so either God will or God will not provide care.... or maybe there is another possibility....

yes you have side stepped the issue and instead have attempted to advocate God's position from what you believe is his view..... If God says he will take care of you, and there are plenty of bible texts that suggest that, are you saying that those assurances are conditional? Might not be in this life? That the promise will be made good as He decides? If that is what you are suggesting, what good is the promise of protection if you may or may not be protected? Does God have to justify himself? If he makes a promise why shouldn't he?

exactly..... the discussion would sound totally different from Bosnia, Darfur, Rwanda, Afghanistan, etc....

And from post #92 (had to insert by hand)

Originally Posted by mva1985

What about the fact that Paul prayed three times to have the thorn removed from his side, and God's answer was my grace is sufficient for thee?
​

what about it? You think that phrase would bring comfort to the family in the following story?

Jurors cringed, cried and some desperately looked away as they were shown a series of deeply disturbing and graphic videos taken by a convicted child killer as he tortured, sexually abused and nearly killed a 9-year-old boy.

Joseph Edward Duncan III, acting as his own attorney, had argued against playing the videos, saying it would turn jurors "into my victims" as they decide whether he should be executed.

Duncan kidnapped the boy, Dylan Groene, and his sister, Shasta, in May 2005 after murdering their older brother, their mother and her fiance in the Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, area. The two young children were taken deep into the Lolo National Forest, where they endured weeks of horrendous abuse at Duncan's hands.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/21/duncan...ref=mpstoryview
​

or do you think that phrase will help this girl?

First he saw the girl's eyes: dark and wide, unfocused, unblinking. She wasn't looking at him so much as through him.
She lay on a torn, moldy mattress on the floor. She was curled on her side, long legs tucked into her emaciated chest. Her ribs and collarbone jutted out; one skinny arm was slung over her face; her black hair was matted, crawling with lice. Insect bites, rashes and sores pocked her skin. Though she looked old enough to be in school, she was naked — except for a swollen diaper.
"The pile of dirty diapers in that room must have been 4 feet high," the detective said. "The glass in the window had been broken, and that child was just lying there, surrounded by her own excrement and bugs."
When he bent to lift her, she yelped like a lamb. "It felt like I was picking up a baby," Holste said. "I put her over my shoulder, and that diaper started leaking down my leg."
The girl didn't struggle. Holste asked, What's your name, honey? The girl didn't seem to hear.
He searched for clothes to dress her, but found only balled-up laundry, flecked with feces. He looked for a toy, a doll, a stuffed animal. "But the only ones I found were covered in maggots and roaches."



http://www.tampabay.com/features/hum...icle750838.ece
​

Sorry MVA, to me those kinds of answers seem inadequate....

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Nearing the end of the productive dialogue at this point...

God knows more about suffering then we will ever know. I have faith that He is doing the right thing.

Exactly. But I was curious what RND's take was since he added one more layer and compounded it with "character."

Stormy, this is an example of how a really good question in an OP often rapidly expands the conversation!

I wonder if those who are experiencing trauma have the same view....

That's good. And more is asked of us - knowledge. Faith is meant to be a bridge to greater knowing. Not the fuel of stasis.

Of course, once we cross the bridge, we will still exercise faith - just on a new spectrum.

Having faith that His eye is on the sparrow is not a substitute for trying to understand why people are suffering and what we can do to help our brothers and sisters.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

OK there were a dozen or so worthwhile posts after that, short ones, basically along the same theme of restating or reaffirming the validity of the question -- and then we got bogged down in metadiscussion and the continual derailings of the fussy and noisy who just plain didn't want this conversation to happen beyond the 2-dimensional confines of "of course the emperor's suit bes splendid to behold!! now shut your eyes!!"

By the way if anyone's good meaty posts got left out of the thread highlights above it bes not intentional. Using the "MQ" button it discovered it can be very arbitrary dropping out things here and there even where they have been selected. If you made a really good point or contribution in the first 150 posts in this thread and want it recapped, feel free to dig it up!

 

[AzA]

Christians say God will take care of you, that you can trust God, yet we see daily horrific suffering.... so either God will or God will not provide care.... or maybe there is another possibility....

I thought it was interesting that when this post was quoted again, that all-important last phrase was ignored. The post presents at least three options:
(a) God will do X
(b) God will not do X
(c) There is another possibility outside of the binary of Yes/No.

The following day, Avonia addressed (c):

Having faith that His eye is on the sparrow is not a substitute for trying to understand why people are suffering and what we can do to help our brothers and sisters.

 

[RND]

I thought it was interesting that when this post was quoted again, that all-important last phrase was ignored. The post presents at least three options:
(a) God will do X
(b) God will not do X
(c) There is another possibility outside of the binary of Yes/No.

The following day, Avonia addressed (c):

Originally Posted by Avonia

Having faith that His eye is on the sparrow is not a substitute for trying to understand why people are suffering and what we can do to help our brothers and sisters.​

Aza, do you think that when we do things that help alleviate the pain and suffering of life that is all around us that we aren't really doing something outside of your note of (C) but really doing something regarding (A) or (B)?

For example, I enjoy being apart of prison ministries quite a bit. Do you think this is something that I was solely responsible on my own or do you think that it might be God's will working in me?
​

 

[AzA]

That's the question, isn't it? How does one define God and distinguish Him, if at all, from creation? Is it appropriate to claim that (a) God has acted, or (b) God hasn't acted? Is it appropriate to expect marked extraterrestrial intervention of any kind if one hasn't first clarified who/what God is or what His relationship to our action, inaction, experience, or existence is?
An assumption that God is Other and apart leads to requests for Him to "come, look, and see."

 

[StormyOne]

I thought it was interesting that when this post was quoted again, that all-important last phrase was ignored. The post presents at least three options:
(a) God will do X
(b) God will not do X
(c) There is another possibility outside of the binary of Yes/No.

The following day, Avonia addressed (c):

exactly lil sis..... good catch......and insightful too....

 

[StormyOne]

That's the question, isn't it? How does one define God and distinguish Him, if at all, from creation? Is it appropriate to claim that (a) God has acted, or (b) God hasn't acted? Is it appropriate to expect marked extraterrestrial intervention of any kind if one hasn't first clarified who/what God is or what His relationship to our action, inaction, experience, or existence is?
An assumption that God is Other and apart leads to requests for Him to "come, look, and see."

the unspoken c) which some may not be prepared for, God expects that humans act to resolve human problems....

 

[RND]

That's the question, isn't it? How does one define God and distinguish Him, if at all, from creation?

Yeah, that is essentially the main question I think at some point we are all asked to answer. Can we see the Love that God has for us outside of all the words and actions of life and evidenced only by His creation?

Is it appropriate to claim that (a) God has acted, or (b) God hasn't acted?

I think as a friend, a true friend, God doesn't mind us asking and addressing this point. Personally, I think what God is looking for is to whether we will give credit to where credit is due.

Is it appropriate to expect marked extraterrestrial intervention of any kind if one hasn't first clarified who/what God is or what His relationship to our action, inaction, experience, or existence is?

Or, unfortunately, is it appropriate to ask for "extraterrestrial intervention of any kind" (I like that!) based on our limited knowledge of what God truly is or does?

An assumption that God is Other and apart leads to requests for Him to "come, look, and see."

I agree! I think God knows about this and our tendencies to do just as you mentioned and understands.

 

[RND]

the unspoken c) which some may not be prepared for, God expects that humans act to resolve human problems....

Doesn't that really boil down to "God doing something?"

For example, some could use your example in a sense to say that through Adolph Hitler, God was expecting humans to solve human problems. A Neo-Nazi group might be prone to say that.

However, if Adolph Hitler was acting outside of God's will (which I believe he was) then what was the motivating factor that inspired Hitler to gas and burn millions of people?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I thought it was interesting that when this post was quoted again, that all-important last phrase was ignored. The post presents at least three options:
(a) God will do X
(b) God will not do X
(c) There is another possibility outside of the binary of Yes/No.

The following day, Avonia addressed (c):

Sorry -- like it said, that "MQ" (multiquote) button did a lot of weird arbitrary things, it didn't turn out as intended. No omissions or oversights happened on purpose or for any deliberate reasons, it assures you, other than leaving out derails. (Case in point see what quoting did to your post above? ARGH! CF needs better quote tools. )

Thanks for bringing these back though!!!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

the unspoken c) which some may not be prepared for, God expects that humans act to resolve human problems....

Yes BUT.
Not everything we suffer constitutes a human problem. For starters, we did not "invent" death or sickness or natural disaster; we got born into a world where these exist and get determined by factors way beyond our control. We have managed to tame some of these factors with science and technology, but we remain a long way away from eliminating death, sickness, or natural disasters, period.

Now, other things clearly we have either created or added to, like environmental conditions through pollution and irresponsible waste of resources. These things we should (IMO) regard as our problem and as things we need to act decisively to change.

Still other things though, like plane crashes, car collisions, these occur as byproducts of our technologies but while we can improve those technologies and increase our maintenance of the vehicles we make to top-notch, we cannot eliminate them entirely insofar as they occur as a random convergence of factors we can neither predict nor volitionally encompass.

But certainly, things like hunger, poverty, neglect or abuse of children, yes, these things the human species brings upon itself collectively, and God or no God, the human species should act in concert to eliminate them. But who will watch over the innocents and to whom can they plead for deliverance in cases where the ultimate disposition of their lives lies entirely outside their hands or their doing, and they have no hope for escape?? People cannot simply choose to one day get up and walk away from poverty and into a cushy life of sufficient means. It takes not only hard work and dedication, it may take educational opportunities they have no access to, etc. A child left to starve and rot in its own filth for six years cannot do anything to remedy its plight and if those around her either don't know she exists or simply don't care or happen to be sick and afflicted themselves to where they live so completely removed from reality as to count their only fault a "dirty house" (when in fact the place crawled with vermin, had been smeared with feces, etc.), what then???

OK clearly if we make the atheist argument -- no god exists -- then they have no one to hope in or appeal to, no one to hear the screams locked away dying inside their hearts and minds, and hoping for humans who stand in a position to do anything about it can be totally futile. Most humans even caring ones have their own hands full just trying to survive themselves...

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

an explanation for this?

I just came upon this thread and I confess that I have thus far only read the first 3 pages of replies - I apologize in advance if my post is redundant.

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:7-9

John 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." (emphasis added)

John 16:33 fairly well refutes the prosperity gospel and any others that are similar. Jesus states, quite plainly and unmistakebly, that we WILL have trouble.

I don't know why suffering is allowed for everyone. I am not God, and I see only a part of the picture - through a glass darkly, as it were. I don't think it is possible for finite man to fully grasp the nature of an infinite God.

I know that in my own life, the sexual abuse that I went through as a child (and the aftermath lived out in my lifestyle as an adult) have given me a deeper compassion for others and a deeper understanding of the nature of forgiveness.

I never went through a period of hating God, or blaming God. I just didn't believe He existed, period. I was saved in 2007 - where do I now think God was when I was child and after? I envision Jesus, seeing all, and weeping for me but also knowing that it would be used later in my life to reach others who were damaged and hurting.

I know this provides no answers for why there are starving children, mass murders, abused men, women and children, and the like.

I, personally, have to believe (based upon how my own suffering has been used for His glory) that in some way or another all suffering will be used to glorify God. I also think that Christians should be providing aid, comfort and ease in those situations - which, when done from the right motives, glorifies the Lord, does it not?

 

[Avonia]

I know that in my own life, the sexual abuse that I went through as a child (and the aftermath lived out in my lifestyle as an adult) have given me a deeper compassion for others and a deeper understanding of the nature of forgiveness.

This is often called "The Wounded Healer."

Thanks for joining the conversation!