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On the Hoffer note, Christianity's insistence on our wretchedness is simply egotism.
"Nothing makes one so vain as being told one is a sinner." - Oscar Wilde
we belong to God so righteousness is a moot point.... that's like suggesting that because your child goes out an plays in the mud that they are now something other than your child.... separating a state of being from the person is impossible... if we are to believe that through Christ all are made right, then there is no problem.....Is our righteousness loftier than filthy rags?
BFA
what is morality but one group comparing their list of do's and dont's with another group's list of do's and dont's?What I know of Oscar Wilde would preclude me from putting any credence to his views of morality.
That's a clever way to make a point.we belong to God so righteousness is a moot point.... that's like suggesting that because your child goes out an plays in the mud that they are now something other than your child
the problem is arbitrary and artificial behavioral standards that some pass off as coming from God himself.....I suppose, as long as it's understood there needs to be behaviour standards upheld to be a functioning society.
we belong to God so righteousness is a moot point.........
what is scripture but inspired men's attempt to convey what they understood about God... it is not (and cannot be) the definitive authority about God because it was not written by God.... you are what you are.... a child of God, and He is responsible for your "state of being" just as a parent is responsible for changing their baby's soiled pamper...If righteousness is a moot point, why is it a recurring theme in Scripture? Who is righteous?
BFA
If we understood this, the Bible would be immensely additive. Unfortunately, "sola scriptura" is our proclamation of the Bible being the "only" instead of "a ground." So most of our conversations about meaning miss most of what's meaningful.what is scripture but inspired men's attempt to convey what they understood about God... it is not (and cannot be) the definitive authority about God because it was not written by God.
You must have listened to different sermons than I did. Because my SDA teachers were pretty clear that God desperately wanted us to be "born again" to become something we clearly were not. I was taught that my "nature" was wretched. The subtext on being saved was being saved from yourself.Fortunately, God doesn't ask us to be anything we are not.
Different sermons? No and yes. I sang "Whiter than snow" with great harmonious gusto until my teens when I realized something was amiss with the lyrics.You must have listened to different sermons than I did. Because my SDA teachers were pretty clear that God desperately wanted us to be "born again" to become something we clearly were not. I was taught that my "nature" was wretched. The subtext on being saved was being saved from yourself.
But, alas, I suspect you heard the same sermons I did. So, well said AzA.
Yes, I agree with your above statement and agree that is a definite problem sometimes. I just have a basic problem with Mr. Wilde promoting man-boy "love" and other things like that. Society needs to have checks to protect the innocent, call them morals or whatever.the problem is arbitrary and artificial behavioral standards that some pass off as coming from God himself.....
so you have used an extreme example to make the point? Are you suggesting that the lack of societal boundaries will allow people to do anything they want? Isn't that happening now?Yes, I agree with your above statement and agree that is a definite problem sometimes. I just have a basic problem with Mr. Wilde promoting man-boy "love" and other things like that. Society needs to have checks to protect the innocent, call them morals or whatever.
Someone else introduced an Oscar Wilde quote, not me.so you have used an extreme example to make the point? Are you suggesting that the lack of societal boundaries will allow people to do anything they want? Isn't that happening now?
Partially, for those who are motivated by societal approval.... however, the people who really want to do something, they do whatever it is they want to do... now they may do it secretly (because of legal consequences) but not because of societal stigma....Someone else introduced an Oscar Wilde quote, not me.
I think societal and legal boundries have prevented a lot of undesirable and hurtful actions. No, I don't think most people do anything they want to now. I know I sure don't.
Don't you think there are social stigmas that influence people's behaviour in certain ways?
what is scripture but inspired men's attempt to convey what they understood about God... it is not (and cannot be) the definitive authority about God because it was not written by God.... you are what you are.... a child of God, and He is responsible for your "state of being" just as a parent is responsible for changing their baby's soiled pamper...
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