Mixed feelings about the Church

[Andrew B.]

In the last few days a priest and a lay person from the local Roman Catholic Church have been talking to me about being confirmed. I'm having some problems approaching this idea because I have some antipathy for the Catholic Church's practices and positions. But I also continue to be drawn to the Catholic Church because I've met so many Catholics who are terrific people.

I asked a teacher at the local Catholic Church about all the fuss that is made over saints, and she said not to worry about talking to saints. I don't need to, and if I am meant to have a connection this way, it will happen on its own. Then I asked about the attention that Mary gets, and she said too much attention is put on Mary, and if we asked Mary where the attention should be, she would say it should be on Jesus. I also asked what steps one should take before being ready for confirmation. She said there is only one important step, and that is a belief in Jesus and a desire to understand him better. I also have a visit from the Pastor, and he told me to not worry about learning all the prayers and the rosary etc. He also told me I had a good understanding of the Bible, and should be looking more at how Christianity can help me feel better.

Anyway, all of this sounds great to me. But I'm having trouble connecting it to Catholicism. I guess I'm thinking, maybe, this is too good to be true. Are there Catholic Churches that are this liberal? If so, I wonder how they manage to fit in with the hierarchy of the Church.

 

[No Swansong]

In the last few days a priest and a lay person from the local Roman Catholic Church have been talking to me about being confirmed. I'm having some problems approaching this idea because I have some antipathy for the Catholic Church's practices and positions. But I also continue to be drawn to the Catholic Church because I've met so many Catholics who are terrific people.

I asked a teacher at the local Catholic Church about all the fuss that is made over saints, and she said not to worry about talking to saints. I don't need to, and if I am meant to have a connection this way, it will happen on its own. Then I asked about the attention that Mary gets, and she said too much attention is put on Mary, and if we asked Mary where the attention should be, she would say it should be on Jesus. I also asked what steps one should take before being ready for confirmation. She said there is only one important step, and that is a belief in Jesus and a desire to understand him better. I also have a visit from the Pastor, and he told me to not worry about learning all the prayers and the rosary etc. He also told me I had a good understanding of the Bible, and should be looking more at how Christianity can help me feel better.

Anyway, all of this sounds great to me. But I'm having trouble connecting it to Catholicism. I guess I'm thinking, maybe, this is too goCd to be true. Are there Catholic Churches that are this liberal? If so, I wonder how they manage to fit in with the hierarchy of the Church.

While no longer Roman Catholic my Theology degree is from a Roman Catholic university. Most of what you have written seems pretty accurate to me with one exception. The Bishops of each Diocese determine what is necessary for Confirmation and then leave it to their priests to ready each confirmand. I doubt that the Bishop of your diocese would be content with what seems to be a cursory understanding of the Church. Most Parishes have a preparation program for adults, I would be surprised to find that your Bishop did not want you to complete it. One thing you did not mention, have you been baptized and was it in the Trinitarian formula? This is actually essential universally in the Roman Catholic Church.

I will pray that the Lord continues to guide you.

 

[Andrew B.]

Thanks for the response. I think the adult program that leads to baptism and confirmation takes 2 1/2 years. But my health prevents me from attending. And the nature of my health problems raise the question of whether I'll be around in 2 1/2 years. So they suggested an accommodation.

I was trying to learn from the teacher where they expect someone to be before confirmation, because I would prefer to prepare as much as I can. Also, I think it is important that I feel good about what I do. So I am trying to see if my Christian beliefs mesh with the Roman Catholic Church.

As for my baptism, I was baptised by a Roman Catholic priest from a different church. This was arranged by my caregiver without my knowledge, at a time where my future was very iffy.

BTW, I've been trying to read "The King's Highway: Simple Statement of Catholic Belief and Duty." This is actually an Anglo-Catholic book, but it's what I have.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

.....I asked a teacher at the local Catholic Church about all the fuss that is made over saints, and she said not to worry about talking to saints. I don't need to.....

That teacher should not have said that. Invocation of the saints is part of the Mass, and the doctrine regarding the Communion of Saints MUST be believed.

At Mass every Sunday, you ask for the prayers of the saints when you say:

I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

 

[Christ+a]

In the last few days a priest and a lay person from the local Roman Catholic Church have been talking to me about being confirmed. I'm having some problems approaching this idea because I have some antipathy for the Catholic Church's practices and positions. But I also continue to be drawn to the Catholic Church because I've met so many Catholics who are terrific people.

I asked a teacher at the local Catholic Church about all the fuss that is made over saints, and she said not to worry about talking to saints. I don't need to, and if I am meant to have a connection this way, it will happen on its own. Then I asked about the attention that Mary gets, and she said too much attention is put on Mary, and if we asked Mary where the attention should be, she would say it should be on Jesus. I also asked what steps one should take before being ready for confirmation. She said there is only one important step, and that is a belief in Jesus and a desire to understand him better. I also have a visit from the Pastor, and he told me to not worry about learning all the prayers and the rosary etc. He also told me I had a good understanding of the Bible, and should be looking more at how Christianity can help me feel better.

Anyway, all of this sounds great to me. But I'm having trouble connecting it to Catholicism. I guess I'm thinking, maybe, this is too good to be true. Are there Catholic Churches that are this liberal? If so, I wonder how they manage to fit in with the hierarchy of the Church.

this kind of pick-and-choose advice was the reason why i left the Catholic Church in '87 because either the RC's teachings either are the truth and HAVE TO BE BELIEVED, or, if i can pick and choose and it doesn't really matter what i believe and what not, then it can't be truth.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

this kind of pick-and-choose advice was the reason why i left the Catholic Church in '87 because either the RC's teachings either are the truth and HAVE TO BE BELIEVED, or, if i can pick and choose and it doesn't really matter what i believe and what not, then it can't be truth.

There will always be people who give bad advice or have wrong notions in any group. That is a poor reason to leave the Church.

 

[Andrew B.]

Thanks for posting that. Also, I appreciate everyone's patience with me. From reading a little, I realize this might be a tiresome topic.

 

[Christ+a]

There will always be people who give bad advice or have wrong notions in any group. That is a poor reason to leave the Church.

maybe i expressed myself wrongly: there were things that i did not believe back then (Pope, Mary, saints), and those well-meaning ppl were trying to build a bridge to not believe and still remain a Catholic. i didn't think that was possible. to me it was an either - or situation.

 

[Caedmon]

That teacher should not have said that. Invocation of the saints is part of the Mass, and the doctrine regarding the Communion of Saints MUST be believed.

At Mass every Sunday, you ask for the prayers of the saints when you say:

I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

If the priest actually says the prayer, that is.

 

[JasonV]

Thanks for the response. I think the adult program that leads to baptism and confirmation takes 2 1/2 years. But my health prevents me from attending. And the nature of my health problems raise the question of whether I'll be around in 2 1/2 years. So they suggested an accommodation.

This is known as economy. Every Bishop has a right to exercise a certain leeway in his own diocese when circumstances dictate it's use is a good idea.

I was trying to learn from the teacher where they expect someone to be before confirmation, because I would prefer to prepare as much as I can. Also, I think it is important that I feel good about what I do. So I am trying to see if my Christian beliefs mesh with the Roman Catholic Church.

Catholicism is Christianity my friend, but that does not mean that the Roman church alone is Catholic.

If you find difficulties with the Church of Rome, perhaps you should look into other Catholic churches, such as the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican and Old Catholic denominations. Each is Catholic, just not under HH in Rome.

 

[Andrew B.]

Catholicism is Christianity my friend, but that does not mean that the Roman church alone is Catholic.

I think we all know that Catholics are Christians. And I think we all know that some Christians find comfort in one denomination and not another.

The way this whole thing is unfolding is somewhat outside of my control. I've tried to be in touch with all the churches that are near me. Most don't answer my emails or telephone messages. The only ones that have been responsive are the Catholics (Anglican and Roman). So I'm pretty much just trying to see if/how I can go along with what's happening.

 

[Athanasias]

If the priest actually says the prayer, that is.

true but the Creed is to be believed and it state that we must beleive int he communion of saints. This concept includes the fact that we can pray to saints and should.

 

[Athanasias]

I think we all know that Catholics are Christians. And I think we all know that some Christians find comfort in one denomination and not another.

The way this whole thing is unfolding is somewhat outside of my control. I've tried to be in touch with all the churches that are near me. Most don't answer my emails or telephone messages. The only ones that have been responsive are the Catholics (Anglican and Roman). So I'm pretty much just trying to see if/how I can go along with what's happening.

Anglicans are protestants historically(Many themselves would embrace the term) as Henry "protested" against Christ One Catholic Church over divorce so he pulled a Luther and made up his own Church denomination where he would be the head. Any apostolic succession to the true Catholic church was lost when the Anglicans changed their ordination rite as the Catholic Church today teaches.

 

[No Swansong]

Actually most Anglicans claim to be both Catholic (Universal and Complete) and Protestant (protesting against the abuses of the Roman Catholic Church) As for changing the ordination rite it is precisely the same one the Catholic Church used for over 300 years previous to the reformation, therefore if Anglican orders are invalid then so must Roman Catholic orders. You claim the Anglicans changed the rite but in actuality as was pointed out in Saepius Officio in 1897, that the required references to a sacrificial priesthood did not exist in earlier Latin rites, nor did it occur in the Orthodox rites ever.

Additionally in the late 1800's all Anglican lines were shared with the Old Catholics which at the time were still in communion with Rome therefore even if they did not possess valid rites previously they certainly did afterward.

 

[Andrew B.]

true but the Creed is to be believed and it state that we must believe int he communion of saints. This concept includes the fact that we can pray to saints and should.

I've been reading a prayer book I got from the local Roman Catholic church. So far all the statements addressed to saints are requests for the saints to pray for us. In one respect, this is no different than asking friends to pray for us. But in another respect, it is an ongoing attempt to communicate with the dead. And I'm not sure what to make of that. I don't see this as an occult practice, but I'm not familiar enough with the Bible to know if there is support for humans to call upon the dead. For example, in the Old Testament, did people ask for help from key people (Moses, Jacob, etc.) after their deaths?

 

[Fantine]

You are taking instructions in the parish where you will be confirmed, aren't you? If that is so then what they say is most important. And if you continue to attend Mass at that parish, I doubt that you will ever find a mental disconnect between what you believe and what you think you are expected to believe.

When you are confirmed, the bishop says, "Receive the Holy Spirit." The Holy Spirit has the power to take faith that is the size of a mustard seed and make it grow.

I don't think anyone has perfect faith (including, and perhaps especially, the ones who think their faith is perfect and armchair quarterback everyone else's.)

I think that Confirmation is a manifestation of a desire to take the next step in a relationship with God and to receive the grace that God desires to give you in abundance.

 

[Andrew B.]

You are taking instructions in the parish where you will be confirmed, aren't you?

Good point. So after rereading your message, I called and discussed some of my confusion with the teacher there. She set my mind more at ease about this.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I've been reading a prayer book I got from the local Roman Catholic church. So far all the statements addressed to saints are requests for the saints to pray for us. In one respect, this is no different than asking friends to pray for us. But in another respect, it is an ongoing attempt to communicate with the dead. And I'm not sure what to make of that. I don't see this as an occult practice, but I'm not familiar enough with the Bible to know if there is support for humans to call upon the dead. For example, in the Old Testament, did people ask for help from key people (Moses, Jacob, etc.) after their deaths?

Hi, we don't believe that the Saints in Heaven are dead, I mean..they died, but they are now alive in Christ. Remember the Transfiguration in the Bible.. Moses and Elijah appeared to the disciples..
In the Old Testament, it says that we are not to ask "the dead" for information or about the future, or to ask them to contact us. As Catholics, we never do this. We just ask for their intercession.

hope that helps..

God bless.

 

[Michael96]

Andrew

Lots of Catholics don't pray to saints (including Mary) in private prayer. Sometime you may feel you want to and that's cool. Or you may always prefer to privately pray just to God. That's cool as well - there's nothing in Catholic teaching that says that you must pray to saints in private prayer. Your hesitance would only be a problem if you objected to praying to saints as part of the liturgy.

I hope things are going well for you.

 

[Korah]

Andrew
Lots of Catholics don't pray to saints (including Mary) in private prayer. Sometime you may feel you want to and that's cool. Or you may always prefer to privately pray just to God. That's cool as well - there's nothing in Catholic teaching that says that you must pray to saints in private prayer. Your hesitance would only be a problem if you objected to praying to saints as part of the liturgy.
I hope things are going well for you.

Right, Michael96.
In 1969 when I was baptized RC (before RCIA had been reinstituted after a lapse of over a thousand years), I accepted all the RC doctrines I was taught. I accepted and believed in the Communion of the Saints. But as a former Protestant I just never thought about praying to saints and never did. I left RC in 1992, but not about disputes over doctrines as such (primarily papal interference in politics, the Council of Trent High Biblicism, and the priest pedophilia scandals that revealed Holy Orders weren't grace-imbuing).