Mission

[Jerrysch]

What is the mission of the 144,000 refered to in Rev. 7?

 

[eph3Nine]

Thats easy. They are JEWS who will be preaching the gospel of the Kingdom AGAIN to those remaining on the earth. Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.Scripture tells you who they are and what their mission is....Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (thrones ande lambs have to do with the NATION ISRAEL

IF you rightly divide, its easy to see.

We, the church which is His Body , are long gone at the time of this event.

 

[BalaamsAss51]

What is the mission of the 144,000 refered to in Rev. 7?

Hello Jerrysch.

The symbolic number 144,000 represents God's people on earth in perfect order and thus ready to march. This is interpreted to be the church militant, poised and ready to carry out the marching orders - the mission - that her Lord has given to her.

John is comforted by the sealing of these 144,000. It means that no matter how much he and God's people on earth suffer as they fulfill the mission of their Lord, God will protect them in their faith.

The significance of the symbolism comes from the OT and is explained within Revelation itself. According to 7:4-8 the number results from 12,000 multiplied by twelve, that is, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. 12 is the basic number used in Revelation to symbolize in representative fashion the church or people of God. 12 is multiplied by 144 which represents the holy city Jerusalem, and that result is multiplied by 1000, the number which indicates perfection or completeness in terms of natural life and periods of time here on earth. (Check commentary by Brighton, Revelation)

Again, 12 symbolizes the church in representative fashion. The number 144 represents God's people as his holy swelling place in the new heaven and new earth. The number 1000 symbolizes the whole period of time during which the NT church on earth is to carry out her mission of witness. The resulting number, 144,000, thus symbolizes the church militant - God's dwelling place here on earth, and the time alloted to the church to complete her mission, the NT era.

All this has nothing to do with the misguided idea that the jewish people will come to accept Christ before the end of time. Further, the lamb of God is a description or title of Jesus Christ, not a designation for any Israel nation.

Pax

 

[TubaFour]

Hello Jerrysch.

The symbolic number 144,000 represents God's people on earth in perfect order and thus ready to march. This is interpreted to be the church militant, poised and ready to carry out the marching orders - the mission - that her Lord has given to her.

John is comforted by the sealing of these 144,000. It means that no matter how much he and God's people on earth suffer as they fulfill the mission of their Lord, God will protect them in their faith.

The significance of the symbolism comes from the OT and is explained within Revelation itself. According to 7:4-8 the number results from 12,000 multiplied by twelve, that is, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. 12 is the basic number used in Revelation to symbolize in representative fashion the church or people of God. 12 is multiplied by 144 which represents the holy city Jerusalem, and that result is multiplied by 1000, the number which indicates perfection or completeness in terms of natural life and periods of time here on earth. (Check commentary by Brighton, Revelation)

Again, 12 symbolizes the church in representative fashion. The number 144 represents God's people as his holy swelling place in the new heaven and new earth. The number 1000 symbolizes the whole period of time during which the NT church on earth is to carry out her mission of witness. The resulting number, 144,000, thus symbolizes the church militant - God's dwelling place here on earth, and the time alloted to the church to complete her mission, the NT era.

All this has nothing to do with the misguided idea that the jewish people will come to accept Christ before the end of time. Further, the lamb of God is a description or title of Jesus Christ, not a designation for any Israel nation.

Pax

Well said!

 

[Jerrysch]

Hello Jerrysch.

The symbolic number 144,000 represents God's people on earth in perfect order and thus ready to march. This is interpreted to be the church militant, poised and ready to carry out the marching orders - the mission - that her Lord has given to her.

What is the "clue" or indication that causes you to suggest that this is symbolic?

 

[eph3Nine]

The 144,000 are identified as JEWS!

 

[Jerrysch]

The 144,000 are identified as JEWS!

But there are some who indicate that this is symbolic, they need to state why this is so.

Why do we agree that John wrote this book, not some symbolic person "john" and that when he speaks of Jesus Christ he is not refering to some symbolic "Jesus" but when we get to the 144K that is symbolic, how is this "conclusion" drawn?

 

[eph3Nine]

But there are some who indicate that this is symbolic, they need to state why this is so.

Why do we agree that John wrote this book, not some symbolic person "john" and that when he speaks of Jesus Christ he is not refering to some symbolic "Jesus" but when we get to the 144K that is symbolic, how is this "conclusion" drawn?

I, too, would be interested in knowing how they came to the conclusion that this nbr is somehow "symbolic" when scripture TELLS us who they are....any takers?

 

[BalaamsAss51]

What is the "clue" or indication that causes you to suggest that this is symbolic?

Hello Jerrysch.

Well, all the other numbers in Revelation are symbolic. As well as colors, directions, etc. There would have to be a really really strong reason to think that this one particular number is not symbolic. I also do not think that the 1,000 used later in this book is anything other than symbolic.

Pax

 

[BalaamsAss51]

But there are some who indicate that this is symbolic, they need to state why this is so.

Why do we agree that John wrote this book, not some symbolic person "john" and that when he speaks of Jesus Christ he is not refering to some symbolic "Jesus" but when we get to the 144K that is symbolic, how is this "conclusion" drawn?

Well, let's see. The author calls himself "John" in 1:1,4,9 and 22:8. But he nowhere indicates which John he might be. The author just calls himself "John," without any identifying description such as "apostle," "disciple," "son of Zebedee," or "brother of James". He assumed that his hearers whould know who he was. Nevertheless, the overwhelming evidence from the early church is in favor of the apostolic Johannine authorship of Revelation.

Revelation is an example of apocalyptic literature. Its hallmark is symbolic pictures which make up the prophetic message. It uses symbolic imagery, and metaphors. Reading everything in it as not symbolic is to falsely read the text.

Anyway, the 144,000 is derived from OT data, and is used here to represent the church militant on earth. Sure the number is calculated from the Jews, but that doesn't have it do with what it represents. If you would go on to infer that this section means that only 144,000 literally is the number of the saved throughout all time you would be severly mistaken.

This list of the twelve tribes is unlike any in the OT for it is not according to birth order or birth mother or to allotment of the land. (that's 16 lists in the OT). John gives no explanation for these differences between his list and those in the OT. It is clear that a redefined list of the twelve tribes of Israel is used in Rev. 7. This list has been cleansed of any association of apostasy and idolatry, it is a list that emphasizes faithfulness to God. Thus this list serves to symbolize the church of Jesus Christ. God's people are now sealed, protected in her faith, as she stands as a witness in the time of tribulation.

As I said in another post, the colors, numbers, etc. are used as symbols. The trouble comes in when the reader equates the symbol with its model. (like you guys do when you equate the 144,000 with only the jews) The model is only a pointer to clues which will help the reader to discover the application of the symbol. The symbol is a metaphor, and so its meaning is metaphorical, not literal. Again, the onus of proof about whether some word or statement in Revelation is literal or symbolic is on the one who is trying to interpret in a way which is not in line with how the church has understood the meaning to be over the last 2,000 years. I'll stick with the accepted thoughts and not let my mind be captivated with wishful fantasies.

Pax

 

[sojourner2006]

But there are some who indicate that this is symbolic, they need to state why this is so.

Why do we agree that John wrote this book, not some symbolic person "john" and that when he speaks of Jesus Christ he is not refering to some symbolic "Jesus" but when we get to the 144K that is symbolic, how is this "conclusion" drawn?

Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and signified it by His angel to His bond-servant John,"

The word signified means to communicate through signs and symbols. With that in mind, prove that anything in Revelation is not symbolic!

Does Jesus literally have a sharp two-edged sword coming out of His mouth? (Rev.1:16) No the two edged sword that proceeds from His mouth is symbolic for His word.

Jesus is neither a lion or a lamb yet is described as such in Revelation. It is absurd to assume anything in Revelation should be taken at face value, it was not meant to be.

Also this book is a Revelation of Jesus Christ! If it does not reveal Him to you, there is something amiss in your interpretaion!

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy," (Rev.1:3) This is the only book in the Bible that promises a blessing to those who "hear" the words contained therein. Sorry, but I don't get a blessing from the Darby school of biblical interpretation.

SIGNS AND SYMBOLS!

 

[JM]

I have more questions then answers...

Does Rev. 7 include the land promise? If so, why is Joseph and Levi included?

 

[BalaamsAss51]

I have more questions then answers...

Does Rev. 7 include the land promise? If so, why is Joseph and Levi included?

Hello JM.

Went to my Brighton commentary on Revelation. This is from footnote #45, p. 191. First he says that the OT has 16 lists of the twelve tribes according to the sons of Jacob. There are lists by birth order and by land.

"The chief difference between the two kings of lists is that while Joseph and Levi are among the twelve in Gen. 35:23-26, Joseph's two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, take the place of Joseph and Levi in the allotment of the Promised Land: Joseph received a double portion of the land through his two sons, while Levi received cities throughout the territiories of the other tribes. (Josh 16:1-4; 17:14-18; Ezek 48:4-5; Josh 21:1-3)."

He then goes on in the body of the commentary - "...Judah is mentioned first, but he was actually the fourth born. Joseph and Benjamin are correctly listed eleventh and twelfth according to the order of birth. Manasseh, who was a son of Joseph and a grandson of Israel and who is listed as one of the twelve tribes in the allotment of the land, is mentioned. But Manasseh's brother, Ephraim, is completely missing even though he (like his brother) was alloted a portion of the land! Another son of Israel by birth and also one of the twelve tribes allotted a portion of land was Dan. But he woo is completely missing from John's list of the tribes. In this list in Revelation, Levi and Joseph, who were sons of Jacob but who were not alloted a portion of the land, have taken the place of Ephraim and Dan, who were allotted portions.

John gives no explanation for these differences between his list and those in the OT. However, certain conclusions can be surmised. Judah is probably mentioned first because the Messiah came from this tribe. Dan is missing probably because it was in this tribe that graven images were erected, so that Dan became associated with idolatry (Judg 18:1-31). ...In the pseudepigrapha, Dan was thus asociated with apostasy and idolatry. ...Ephraim was connected with this apostasy and idolatry because it was in league with Dan. ...It is clear that a redefined list of the twelve tribes of Israel is used in Rev 7:5-8: a list that has been cleansed of any association of apostasy and idolatry; a list that emphasizes faithfulness to God, hence the inclusion of Joseph and Levi; and in particular a list that focuses on the Messiah because of the placement of Judah.

Thus in rev 7:4-8 the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel serve to symbolize the church of Jesus Christ. The use of the number 144,000, twelve thousand from each tribe, points to the church militant, ready for mission, in her marching order. The specific names in the redefined list show she is cleansed from idolarty and apostasy. And she is sealed, protected in her faith, as she stand as a witness in the time of tribulation."

Hope this helps.

Pax

 

[Jerrysch]

Hello Jerrysch.

Well, all the other numbers in Revelation are symbolic. As well as colors, directions, etc. There would have to be a really really strong reason to think that this one particular number is not symbolic. I also do not think that the 1,000 used later in this book is anything other than symbolic.

Pax

That is quite a sweeping statenment!
So the seven churches in Asia are symbolic?

! 4 John: To the seven churches in the province of Asia.

from the seven spirits before His throne;

That might seem symbolic, but then to what do you refer to determine the meaning?

11 saying, "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

Why is it necessary to import a symbolic meaning when the meaning is explained by the text?

I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me. When I turned I saw seven gold lampstands,

Here we have a valid symbol, but what does it mean???

20 The secret of the seven stars you saw in My right hand, and of the seven gold lampstands, is this: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

I wont go through all of it (unless someone wants me to), but this is an example of allowing the Scripture to give witness to its own meaning. So then it is valid to say that the book of Rev. does contain symbols, not all the nouns are symbols, and we, it we are to understand what God intended to have known must consult the rest of Scripture to find the meaning.

 

[Jerrysch]

Revelation is an example of apocalyptic literature. Its hallmark is symbolic pictures which make up the prophetic message. It uses symbolic imagery, and metaphors. Reading everything in it as not symbolic is to falsely read the text.


Pax

IF we were to follow your "rule" then even the reference to John would have to be symbolic. There is indeed symbolism in this book but not all of the words (nouns) are used in a symbolic manner.
And for the record, how do you define "apocalyptic literature."

 

[Jerrysch]

Anyway, the 144,000 is derived from OT data, and is used here to represent the church militant on earth. Sure the number is calculated from the Jews, but that doesn't have it do with what it represents. If you would go on to infer that this section means that only 144,000 literally is the number of the saved throughout all time you would be severly mistaken.


Pax

What in Scripture supports your conclusion? Where in Scripture does it ever refer to the chruch in the manner which you have suggested? I will suggest that since you are unwilling to allow these who the text indicates to be of ethnic Israel to be what the text afirms them to be, you then have to redefine the meaning of the 12,000 from each tribe. otherwise if they are truely the church "millitant" (whoever that is?) then you have to adjust the meaning of the 144K to somehow fit. So one adjustment in meaning leads to another and another and then you end up with some concocted meaning which was never in the mind of the original author at all!

So where in Scripture do you draw the conclusion that these 144K are the "church Millitant". And do tell us what that phrase means.

 

[Jerrysch]

This list of the twelve tribes is unlike any in the OT for it is not according to birth order or birth mother or to allotment of the land. (that's 16 lists in the OT). John gives no explanation for these differences between his list and those in the OT. It is clear that a redefined list of the twelve tribes of Israel is used in Rev. 7. This list has been cleansed of any association of apostasy and idolatry, it is a list that emphasizes faithfulness to God. Thus this list serves to symbolize the church of Jesus Christ. God's people are now sealed, protected in her faith, as she stands as a witness in the time of tribulation.


Pax

What Scripture backs up your assertion? Where do we find a clue that in any way resembles 144k = church.


For those who do not know it, the method of interpretation which is being employed here by BalaamsAss51 is refered to as "spiritualization". And then let me ask is spiritualization a valid method of interpretation of the Scriptures?

 

[Jerrysch]

As I said in another post, the colors, numbers, etc. are used as symbols. The trouble comes in when the reader equates the symbol with its model. (like you guys do when you equate the 144,000 with only the jews) The model is only a pointer to clues which will help the reader to discover the application of the symbol. The symbol is a metaphor, and so its meaning is metaphorical, not literal. Again, the onus of proof about whether some word or statement in Revelation is literal or symbolic is on the one who is trying to interpret in a way which is not in line with how the church has understood the meaning to be over the last 2,000 years. I'll stick with the accepted thoughts and not let my mind be captivated with wishful fantasies.

Pax

First off are they symbolic or metaphor? Are both of these the same? Or are they similes? Many people do not know what any of these terms mean!


In the process of communication, I will suggest that the literal meaning is the meaning which is suggested first. There are conditions when the "pure literal" meaning is discovered to be not the intended meaning of the author, but the analysis of finding the meaning of any statement bvegins with a literal analysis, if you wont agree to that, then communication will be an unknown art to you. You also need to check your history, a literal hermenunic was employed almost without desention until Oregin who was the father of Spiritualization in my book, you also need to examine what the Reformers had to say about the practice of Spiritualization of which you are a Practitioner .

 

[Jerrysch]

As I said in another post, the colors, numbers, etc. are used as symbols. The trouble comes in when the reader equates the symbol with its model. (like you guys do when you equate the 144,000 with only the jews) The model is only a pointer to clues which will help the reader to discover the application of the symbol. The symbol is a metaphor, and so its meaning is metaphorical, not literal. Again, the onus of proof about whether some word or statement in Revelation is literal or symbolic is on the one who is trying to interpret in a way which is not in line with how the church has understood the meaning to be over the last 2,000 years. I'll stick with the accepted thoughts and not let my mind be captivated with wishful fantasies.

Pax

What you refer to as "wishful fantasies" are actually the plain meaning of the Biblical text.

 

[Jerrysch]

Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and signified it by His angel to His bond-servant John,"

The word signified means to communicate through signs and symbols. With that in mind, prove that anything in Revelation is not symbolic!

/quote]

There are a few words which have a bearing regarding this communication.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

the First one is the word Revelation, it comes from Apokalupsis
and its meaning is;

1. laying bear, making naked
2. a disclosure of truth, instruction
3. concerning things before unknown
4. used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
5. manifestation, appearance

The next word which has bearing on this task is shew; Deiknuo

1. to show, expose to the eyes
2. metaph.
   1. to give evidence or proof of a thing
   2. to show by words or teach

The third word is signify which comes from Semaino

1. to give a sign, to signify, indicate
2. to make known

So the whole process was to express the minifestation of Jesus Christ.

Indeed you have a hangup regarding this book's use of Symbols! I think this is the secound time you have suggested that everything in the book is symbolic, then "John " would be symbolic for someone or something else, and in short every noun would have a different meaning than when one would encounter it in normal usage.

I would like to ask, since you have read many of my posts and have responded to them as if you understood them, why are you able to understand what I am saying without resorting to a claim that all I am writting is symbolic? Why are you demanding that all of the book of Revelation be understood as symbolic?

I essance you are opening the door to diminishing the value of the Scriptures! If it was accepted that the book of Rev. did not really mean what the words literally suggest, then what about the other books of Scripture? Maybe all the references to God in the scriptures really don't refer to God at all, but some symbolic entity, when will this end? Maybe next you will suggest that it wasn't really six days of creation, do you see where your line of "reasoning" could lead you? And you have yet to disclose the "source" of the meanings of these "symblos" to which you refer, if it is the Scripture, show us where the meaning can be deduced.