Missing link was a lie

Tomatoman · Mar 17, 2010

dad:

Oh yes you do, Tman. Otherwise you cannot defend the premise, the foundation of so called science. It assumes a presnt state not only in the far past, but in the future. Really. That is the sole basis of all their dank and dreary discourses that dare to declare that they deal directly in the distant past.

No. The onus is on you. You are the one making a claim, not me. I know this is hard for you but please try and understand; you are the one claiming science is wrong, not me. Prove it is wrong. Should be easy if you're not talking out of your bottom. The trouble is when you present your evidence everyone dies laughing, hence your hurry to shift the emphasis.

But it's still up to you to prove science wrong. Got it?

I'll repeat it. It's up to you.

Until you present some evidence that has escaped the other 4 billion people living on this planet, you have nothing to contribute except hot air.

Split Rock · Mar 17, 2010

dad said:
The differences are clear and pronounced. Any lurker can read something like this, to destroy your claim in minutes...

http://splitmerge.webs.com/split.pdf

Yes I've read all this split/merge nonsense from you before. As you yourself wrote, in my opinion is what its all about. Most of the stuff in the link is strangely about the future and how you personally interpret scripture. Then there is your faulty interpretation of the "splitting" of the tribes of Man at the time of Peleg. Nothing you quoted from scripture supports a change of physical laws, nor anything else you claim. It is all your personal interpretation. Keep that in mind while I address your next post..

dad said:
People claim that?? I haven't met one yet, sorry. It is more a matter of what does the text actually say regarding creation? That is easy to figure out. One will read of Adam, and etc. All that remains is belief. Or lack therof.

If it is all easy to figure out, why is it you are alone in your split/merge ideas? Why doesn't everyone else interpret scripture as you do? That was my whole point (which you apparently missed).

dad said:
Someone comes along with new evidence that shows them that their take on things was wrong. Easy. Got any tough ones?

LOL! You reject any evidence that conflicts with your pet theory as a matter of course. Pillow lava formed the same thousands of years ago? So what. The spectrum of stars formed millions of years ago the same as ones formed today in nebula? So what. All flows off you like water off a duck's back. I will ask you again. How will you ever know if your interpretation of scripture is wrong?

dad said:
Being humble doesn't include taking it up the tailpipe from so called science, and the lies that oppose the bible.

You mean "that opposes your personal interpretation of scripture."

dad said:
Speak for yourself! I have all the absolute authority of God Almighty, as given to man in His word.

Yes, here is the naked arrogance that Tomatoman and I have been pointing ot to you! You do not have the absoulte authority of God, Prideful Blasphemer!!

dad said:
To deny that believers echo the word of God in the bible, is to deny God gave us the thing. There is nothing prideful about believing God over man. In fact, cursed is man that trusteth in man.

You are indeed taking the Word of Man over God, Blasphemer! The Bible was created by Man and the earth, according to your faith, was created by God.

dad · Mar 17, 2010

Tomatoman said:
dad:
No. The onus is on you. You are the one making a claim, not me. I know this is hard for you but please try and understand; you are the one claiming science is wrong, not me.

They claim they are right to begin with. I just point out they are fibbing. Half the time they agree with me.. Like this OP. They require no creator, and a same state, neither of which can be proven. Neither of which are true. They did the claim crime, and they must do the claim time.

Until you present some evidence that has escaped the other 4 billion people living on this planet, you have nothing to contribute except hot air.

The evidence is that the little cult of so called science has no evidence of the state they assumed. The evidence is that the records of antiquity, and God's word clearly describe something quite different. There is therefore no reason to believe their unevidenced fantasies that have falsely been labeled science for too long now. None. Is that OK with you Tman?

dad · Mar 17, 2010

Split Rock said:
Yes I've read all this split/merge nonsense from you before. As you yourself wrote, in my opinion is what its all about. Most of the stuff in the link is strangely about the future and how you personally interpret scripture.

It also mentions that reasons that this state could not be permanent, like the fact that the earth and sun are forever. It also mentions other things that mark the bible past as different.

Then there is your faulty interpretation of the "splitting" of the tribes of Man at the time of Peleg. Nothing you quoted from scripture supports a change of physical laws, nor anything else you claim. It is all your personal interpretation. Keep that in mind while I address your next post..

No. A new heavens is something all believers agree on. The similarities such as the tree of life, and etc to the creation era are stark, and undeniable. Keep that in mind.

If it is all easy to figure out, why is it you are alone in your split/merge ideas? Why doesn't everyone else interpret scripture as you do? That was my whole point (which you apparently missed).

Appeal to popularity.

I am anything but alone in accepting the known spiritual factor. I am not alone in believing in Eden, or the ark, or flood either. I merely have been the first to realize that the past had to be like the future will be, rather than the present.

LOL! You reject any evidence that conflicts with your pet theory as a matter of course. Pillow lava formed the same thousands of years ago? So what. The spectrum of stars formed millions of years ago the same as ones formed today in nebula? So what. All flows off you like water off a duck's back. I will ask you again. How will you ever know if your interpretation of scripture is wrong?

The spectrum of stars we see here in this state, do not represent anything but what we see and are able to see here. They do not make the past the same. Or the future. As a matter of fact, I haven't even seen anyone able to defend the idea that the far away universe actually is in the state we know near earth....? Pillow lava? What about it? How many thousands of years ago is the question..

Yes, here is the naked arrogance that Tomatoman and I have been pointing ot to you! You do not have the absoulte authority of God, Prideful Blasphemer!!

Anyone that can read the bible has that. Especially if they believe it.

You are indeed taking the Word of Man over God, Blasphemer! The Bible was created by Man and the earth, according to your faith, was created by God.

What is the word of man supposed to be here, in your mind? The bible?

Tomatoman · Mar 17, 2010

dad:

They claim they are right to begin with. I just point out they are fibbing. Half the time they agree with me..

Like this OP. They require no creator, and a same state, neither of which can be proven. Neither of which are true. They did the claim crime, and they must do the claim time.

The above is too garbled to make proper sense of. I think you're saying that because a few creationists with an agenda try and find something about evolution to criticise this somehow validates your garbage. That doesn't make sense on any level.

dad:

The evidence is that the little cult of so called science has no evidence of the state they assumed. The evidence is that the records of antiquity, and God's word clearly describe something quite different. There is therefore no reason to believe their unevidenced fantasies that have falsely been labeled science for too long now. None. Is that OK with you Tman?

It's not me you have to convince, it's the whole world. Just because you say science has no evidence don't expect anyone else to believe you. Just because your mangled interpretation of the Bible makes you think the past was different don't expect anyone else to.

Unless you have proof that will persuade the rest of the world that you are right and they are wrong then you're just making a fool of yourself.

I keep coming back to this point in the hope that one day you'll absorb it. I, Tomatoman, don't have to persuade the world that science is correct. The world already knows it is correct. The world doesn't need persuading.

It is YOU who have to prove to everyone that science is wrong. It is YOU who have to present proof of your different state past. That means proof that people take seriously, not the sort of raving nonsense you've been spouting. This is why you don't like having the onus put on you. Because you haven't got any proof of the drivel you're trying to peddle.

Once again, dad. You are the one with all the work to do. Good luck.

Tomatoman · Mar 17, 2010

dad:

I merely have been the first to realize that the past had to be like the future will be, rather than the present.

And how many people have you managed to persuade of this so far?

Split Rock · Mar 17, 2010

dad said:
It also mentions that reasons that this state could not be permanent, like the fact that the earth and sun are forever. It also mentions other things that mark the bible past as different.

So what? These are just indications that the authors of scripture (you know... the human fallible authors) didn't understand the physical world around them, especially when it came to cosmology.

dad said:
No. A new heavens is something all believers agree on. The similarities such as the tree of life, and etc to the creation era are stark, and undeniable. Keep that in mind.

You keep in mind the differences since that is what I am asking you about.

dad said:
Appeal to popularity.

Try instead, appeal to reality. But you once again ignored my question. One more time: Why is your interpretation different from everyone else's?

dad said:
I am anything but alone in accepting the known spiritual factor. I am not alone in believing in Eden, or the ark, or flood either. I merely have been the first to realize that the past had to be like the future will be, rather than the present.

You continue to point out only what faith you share with others. I am asking about what you do not share with others.

dad said:
The spectrum of stars we see here in this state, do not represent anything but what we see and are able to see here. They do not make the past the same. Or the future. As a matter of fact, I haven't even seen anyone able to defend the idea that the far away universe actually is in the state we know near earth....? Pillow lava? What about it? How many thousands of years ago is the question..

What specific evidence would you accept that would convince you that your split/merge ideas are wrong. Just one hypothetical example will do. I predict you will ignore this question as well.

dad said:
Anyone that can read the bible has that. Especially if they believe it.

So belief is the key, is it? How would you compare your belief to that of the 9-11 hyjackers? Are you willing to sacrifice your life for your belief as they did? Does that make them right?

dad said:
What is the word of man supposed to be here, in your mind? The bible?

Bingo! You finally got something right.

Split Rock · Mar 17, 2010

Tomatoman said:
dad:

And how many people have you managed to persuade of this so far?

I don't refer to "Dad's Lonely Church of One" for no reason.

AirPo · Mar 17, 2010

Tomatoman said:
dad:

And how many people have you managed to persuade of this so far?

Do sock pupets count?

dad · Mar 17, 2010

Tomatoman said:
dad:
The above is too garbled to make proper sense of. I think you're saying that because a few creationists with an agenda try and find something about evolution to criticise this somehow validates your garbage. That doesn't make sense on any level.

No. I am saying that science does the crime against the past, by claiming imaginary same state time.

dad:
It's not me you have to convince, it's the whole world. Just because you say science has no evidence don't expect anyone else to believe you. Just because your mangled interpretation of the Bible makes you think the past was different don't expect anyone else to.

Relax. Just concentrate on your own belief in science and all claims it makes based on assuming the unproven present state existed in the unknown past. Don't worry about others. Many of them might follow the evidence, or lack thereof.

I keep coming back to this point in the hope that one day you'll absorb it. I, Tomatoman, don't have to persuade the world that science is correct. The world already knows it is correct. The world doesn't need persuading.

I don't need to prove the spiritual or God either by physical only science. Absorb that.

It is YOU who have to prove to everyone that science is wrong.

Nope. It is right by an large. Give it up! So called science, however, that assumes the present is the key to the past does need to prove plenty. Otherwise it remains a foolish fable.

It is YOU who have to present proof of your different state past. That means proof that people take seriously, not the sort of raving nonsense you've been spouting. This is why you don't like having the onus put on you. Because you haven't got any proof of the drivel you're trying to peddle.

Once again, dad. You are the one with all the work to do. Good luck.

The evidence of a different state is in the bible and history, and spiritual experiences of man since e'er there was a man on this planet.

dad · Mar 17, 2010

Split Rock said:
I don't refer to "Dad's Lonely Church of One" for no reason.

Belief in the creation as something real is a widely held position.

BananaSlug · Mar 17, 2010

dad said:
He says the future will be different. The past that is described is so similar, that it is a very solid and reasonable conclusion to reach that the far past was truly unlike the present.

Verses please?

Oh, reaaallllly? Show us!

5th dynasty 2494-2345 BC

Userkaf
Sahura
Neferirkara Kakai
Shepseskara Isi
Raneferef
Nyuserra
Menkauhor Akauhor
Djedkara Isesi
Unas

The first two kings of the fifth dynasty, were sons of a lady, Khentkaues, who was a member of the fourth dynasty royal family. There was an institutionalisation of officialdom and high officials for the first time came from outside the royal family.

The pyramids are smaller and less solidly constructed than those of the fourth dynasty, but the carvings from the mortuary temples are well preserved and of the highest quality.

There are surviving papyri from this period which demonstrate well developed methods of accounting and record keeping. They document the redistribution of goods between the royal residence, the temples, and officials.

6th dynasty 2345-2181 BC

Teti
Userkara
Pepy I
Merenra
Pepy II

There are many inscriptions from the sixth dynasty. These include records of trading expeditions to the south from the reigns of Pepi I. One of the most interesting is a letter written by Pepy II.

The pyramid of Pepi II at southern Saqqara is the last major monument of the Old Kingdom. None of the names of kings of the short-lived seventh dynasty are known and the eighth dynasty shows signs of and political decay.

Now how about replying to the rest of the questions that you conviently seemed to have ignored?

That does not answer the question.
If God isn't going to give us the ability to choose sin in the New Jerusalem, why didn't he just skip the thousands of years of suffering and strife and not give Adam and Eve the choice to eat the fruit in the first place?

Take your time.

So it was fulfilled because he read it? Maybe you should read all of Isaiah 61, it is a song of praise, not a prophecy.

Which one? The literalist or the allegorist?

That is the whole point! There is no evidence that shows the physical laws of the past were different from now. If there is no evidence to support it then there is no reason to assume it was different.

You know for 100% certainty?

Archean pillow lava from the Pilbara region of Western Australia. Pillow lava is formed underwater.

dad · Mar 17, 2010

Split Rock said:
So what? These are just indications that the authors of scripture (you know... the human fallible authors) didn't understand the physical world around them, especially when it came to cosmology.

No. The indications are that what they understood represented something different than we now see.

You keep in mind the differences since that is what I am asking you about.

The list is big.

Try instead, appeal to reality. But you once again ignored my question. One more time: Why is your interpretation different from everyone else's?

On what? The virgin birth? The resurrection? The fact that Christ will return? The coming new heavens and earth? Creation week? I would think that my study of the creation issues have simply led to new deductions, based on God's word, and science.

You continue to point out only what faith you share with others. I am asking about what you do not share with others.

I do not share a belief in a same state future with you.

What specific evidence would you accept that would convince you that your split/merge ideas are wrong. Just one hypothetical example will do. I predict you will ignore this question as well.

Biblical evidence. What evidence do you have that the laws were the same? None. So why accept nothing? What evidence can you produce is the real question! None, is the actual answer that all can see here. You are a demo.

/quote]So belief is the key, is it? How would you compare your belief to that of the 9-11 hyjackers? Are you willing to sacrifice your life for your belief as they did? Does that make them right? [/quote]

How would you compare yours to Genghis Khan?

BananaSlug · Mar 17, 2010

We have no evidence for the existence of unicorns, therefore unicorns exist.
We have no evidence for the existence of leprechauns, therefore leprechauns exist.
We have no evidence for a different state past, therefore a different state past existed.

Tomatoman · Mar 17, 2010

Dad, how many people have you persuaded of your different state past hypothesis?

I've repeated the question since you ignored it the first time.

dad · Mar 17, 2010

BananaSlug said:
Verses please?

Here are some.

A Journey of Discovery - Home

5th dynasty 2494-2345 BC

Click to expand...

Userkaf

Sahura

Neferirkara Kakai

Shepseskara Isi

Raneferef

Nyuserra

Menkauhor Akauhor

Djedkara Isesi

Unas

Support the dates....

The first two kings of the fifth dynasty, were sons of a lady, Khentkaues, who was a member of the fourth dynasty royal family. There was an institutionalisation of officialdom and high officials for the first time came from outside the royal family.

The pyramids are smaller and less solidly constructed than those of the fourth dynasty, but the carvings from the mortuary temples are well preserved and of the highest quality.

Smaller seems to indicate that our gravity may have come to exist as is. So I think your dates are off. Support them.

There are surviving papyri from this period which demonstrate well developed methods of accounting and record keeping. They document the redistribution of goods between the royal residence, the temples, and officials.

6th dynasty 2345-2181 BC

Teti

Userkara

Pepy I

Merenra

Pepy II

There are many inscriptions from the sixth dynasty. These include records of trading expeditions to the south from the reigns of Pepi I. One of the most interesting is a letter written by Pepy II.

The pyramid of Pepi II at southern Saqqara is the last major monument of the Old Kingdom. None of the names of kings of the short-lived seventh dynasty are known and the eighth dynasty shows signs of and political decay.

Now how about replying to the rest of the questions that you conviently seemed to have ignored?

The dates are wrong, by the way. Support them. Let's see real dates older than 2345BC?

That does not answer the question.
If God isn't going to give us the ability to choose sin in the New Jerusalem, why didn't he just skip the thousands of years of suffering and strife and not give Adam and Eve the choice to eat the fruit in the first place?

If a baby nurses, why do we not need to nurse when we are adults? We grow, we learn, we move on. Who says sin is something eternal and a part of heaven??? I notice there is the tree of life in new Jerusalem. Absent, apparently is the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Funny that,,

So it was fulfilled because he read it? Maybe you should read all of Isaiah 61, it is a song of praise, not a prophecy.

It was fulfilled, because He was here. He fulfilled many prophesies. But He knew that the rest of that verse applied to His return to earth, not that trip.

Which one? The literalist or the allegorist?

Who said either has to be right? Sometimes belief and accepting the bible as real might take a bit of both. Long as we do not make it unreal by waving away stuff like creation.

That is the whole point! There is no evidence that shows the physical laws of the past were different from now. If there is no evidence to support it then there is no reason to assume it was different.

That is the whole point! There is no evidence that shows the physical laws of the past were the same as now. If there is no evidence to support it then there is no reason to assume it was the same.

You know for 100% certainty?

What, precisely?

Archean pillow lava from the Pilbara region of Western Australia. Pillow lava is formed underwater.

Tell us more of the geology of the region.

BananaSlug · Mar 17, 2010

dad said:
Here are some.

A Journey of Discovery - Home

So do you have any specific verses or just personal interpretations?

Support the dates.

Something we like to call writing.

Smaller seems to indicate that our gravity may have come to exist as is. So I think your dates are off. Support them.

The Pyramids of Giza were constructed around 2560 BC, led by Pharoah Khufu. The Egyptians left records of how long their pharoahs reigned.

The dates are wrong, by the way. Support them. Let's see real dates older than 2345BC?

The Pyramids of Giza. The oldest pyramid still around is the Step Pyramid of Pharoah Djoser of the 3rd Old Kingdom Dynasty (around 4600 years ago).

If a baby nurses, why do we not need to nurse when we are adults? We grow, we learn, we move on. Who says sin is something eternal and a part of heaven??? I notice there is the tree of life in new Jerusalem. Absent, apparently is the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Funny that,,

You seem to keep sidestepping the point, apparently on purpose. If God is going to eliminate sin from Heaven, that means we no longer have free will to choose sin. If this is the case, why didn't he just do that from the beginning? Isn't that the entire argument for having the Tree of Knowledge in Eden, because God "wanted us to have free will"?

It was fulfilled, because He was here. He fulfilled many prophesies. But He knew that the rest of that verse applied to His return to earth, not that trip.

Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value.

Could you give me the verse from Jeremiah where this is stated?

Who said either has to be right? Sometimes belief and accepting the bible as real might take a bit of both. Long as we do not make it unreal by waving away stuff like creation.

So can a Christian accept evolution as a method of God's act of creation?

That is the whole point! There is no evidence that shows the physical laws of the past were the same as now. If there is no evidence to support it then there is no reason to assume it was the same.

There is no evidence either way. It is more logical to assume the laws of the past were the same as now. If can use present day phenomena to reliably explain the past, why assume it was different?

What, precisely?

You are 100% sure that your interpretation of the Bible is 100% right?

Tell us more of the geology of the region.

The formation is pillow lava in the middle of a desert. If it was formed "pre-split", how was it formed? We know pillow lava is formed under water now, so we assume it was formed underwater in the past (because there is no reason to assume otherwise). What alternative explanation would you conclude as to how this pillow lava was formed, if it was a different method other than under water?

Split Rock · Mar 17, 2010

dad said:
Belief in the creation as something real is a widely held position.

We are discussing your split/merge idea. You know, the one you made a pdf file of? Stop Dodging! If the Bible is easy to interpret, why don't other Christians embrace your split/merge theology? How can you tell if you are wrong?

dad said:
No. The indications are that what they understood represented something different than we now see.

What "indications?" There are certainly none in scripture and there are none in the physical world.

dad said:
The list is big.

Who asked how big the list was? Stop Dodging!

dad said:
On what? The virgin birth? The resurrection? The fact that Christ will return? The coming new heavens and earth? Creation week? I would think that my study of the creation issues have simply led to new deductions, based on God's word, and science.

On the topic we are discussing! Your merge/split theology! Stop Dodging!

dad said:
I do not share a belief in a same state future with you.

I was refering to other Christians. Stop Dodging!

dad said:
Biblical evidence. What evidence do you have that the laws were the same? None. So why accept nothing? What evidence can you produce is the real question! None, is the actual answer that all can see here. You are a demo.

You are purposely obtuse. What evidence would you accept that would falsify your split/merge theology? Give me a specific example. Stop Dodging!

dad said:
How would you compare yours to Genghis Khan?

What does that have to do with the question of does belief indicate truth?
Stop Dodging!

Orogeny · Mar 17, 2010

dad said:
It is His communication to man. Need a cracker?

so does bible=god?

Split Rock · Mar 17, 2010

Orogeny said:
so does bible=god?

For dad, the answer is yes. Furthermore, dad, "God's little echo," is the annointed voice of God's Absolute Authority. Didn't you get the memo??

Missing link was a lie

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