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I agree. For thousands of years, it has.The difference being that thousands of years of experience provide us with a reason to believe in a 'same state' universe.
So called science has to rely on lying, even though they had no witnesses..sad! Like this missing link caper.The point is that eyewitnesses can lie or be mistaken.
I believe in miracles, of course. They do not change the nature of the universe, or all the planet, however. They are a localized application of the spiritual on the physical. The Koran is a book that is, like science, a present state book. It was written over 6 centuries after the time of Christ.Do you believe in Islam? The Koran mentions many miracles that you have not witnessed. Why do you not believe in it?
Science applies in this state, and only here, a bomb is an example. They can't bomb Eden, or heaven.Duh, because we can see the effects of the bomb today. We can watch nuclear weapon testing videos. We can see it with our own eyes. That was a poor comparison.
That depends, what reason do we have for a particular formation to be post or pre flood?We know that pillow lava forms underwater. What reason do we have to assume that it formed differently in the past?
You don't know. Nothing else matters, in lieu of evidence or bible.I don't even believe in a "same state" Eden. I don't believe Eden ever existed.
I don't make the rules. The wages of sin is death. It seems to stand to reason, that sin would separate us from a perfect God.Why? Why does the penalty of sin have to be death?
Let me ask you, would you force him to go the heaven if he preferred hell?Let me ask you this. Would you send a human being to Hell for not loving you?
Don't see why not.Then what about free will? Will we not have free will in the New Earth?
It will be. It is a certain as if it already happened. It is just news from the future. No ifs about it.And what if it is never fullfilled? What about the other verses I gave?
In reference to those that start to see the things mentioned in the end.He specifically said "this generation" when speaking to the disciples.
How one feels about a belief does not make it true. What made Jesus true was that He did heal multitudes and multitudes, was witnessed to control nature itself, beasts and elements, etc. And, that He rose from the actual dead, and was seen by many. So it is not a matter of opinion. It sets the actual calendar of the planet. The scriptures were not fulfilled by Mohamed. So whatever he may have been, he was not the long awaited messiah.I think you misunderstood me. I meant if a follower of Islam felt the same way about their religion, does that mean their religion is true?
I have no reason to. Unless some formation was dated pre flood, or pre split.So you agree that it was formed underwater in the past as well. If not, why should we assume the formation of pillow lava was different in the past?
No. Many are specific. Like the years till Messiah was to come in Dan 9. Like the virgin birth, the town of Betlehem as the birthplace of Jesus, etc etc etc. The details in Psalm 22 of the cross are specific. In some cases, however, one requires the spirit to undertand the meaning. When Jesus read a passage in the synagogue one day, He said, it is fulfilled in your ears. Yet, He stopped mid way in a sentence, and never finished reading the rest. He closed the book. Why? Because the rest of the verse launches far into the future and His return to earth. Same thing elsewhere in the bible, such as Daniel 11, where it talks of some bad king, then launches right to the time of the AntiChrist. Etc.So you are admitting that the prophecies in the Bible are vague? Do you find it interesting that all religious prophecies are so vague? Where the prophets not good enough to be specific?
So why did God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden in the first place? Why did God create Satan?
You mean Babel? He wasn't scared. But if man had reached the spiritual level, apparently, nothing would be withheld from him...or man would have gotten too much power for being in the sin state. We couldn't enter eternal life like this, in depravity, and sin. That is no way to spend eternity. He had to work out a plan for saving us. With His plan, we are changed from the inside out, and can enter in properly.Then why was he so scared of a few people with mud bricks?
We eat and drink in heaven to. The sons of god even took wives. Jesus ate and drank after rising from the dead in His new body. Yet heaven, and His body were anything but physical only. The different state does have similarities, you know.Well then let's look at the next verse.
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:38-39
It seems to me that Christ said they were living their normal lives. There is no mention of a different state past.
I was not aware the "split" mentioned in Genesis refered to the laws of physics either. That is what's best about the Bible, anyone can interpret any vague verse in any way they like. Most likely the split is just the people separating out into the world after Babel. You interpret as some great change in the laws of physics.
No. But, since many feel that we just can't know the day or hour when the rapture will occur, and, they feel, the tribulation ids after the rapture...who could really have one? There has been a great buzz in the world foor decades now, and growing all the time, because all the pieces are in place for the events of the end to unfold. The stage is set. We simply await the curtain call.Do you have a guestimate as to when the tribulation will happen?
So called science has to rely on lying, even though they had no witnesses..sad! Like this missing link caper.
I believe in miracles, of course. They do not change the nature of the universe, or all the planet, however. They are a localized application of the spiritual on the physical. The Koran is a book that is, like science, a present state book. It was written over 6 centuries after the time of Christ.
Science applies in this state, and only here, a bomb is an example. They can't bomb Eden, or heaven.
That depends, what reason do we have for a particular formation to be post or pre flood?
I don't make the rules. The wages of sin is death. It seems to stand to reason, that sin would separate us from a perfect God.
Let me ask you, would you force him to go the heaven if he preferred hell?
Don't see why not.
Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation (that sees all the things) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
So, maybe there is some prophesy expert on the forum that can shed more light on that. I have an iniatial reaction, but would need to research it more to have an informed opinion. My opinion is, or reaction, that indeed the onslaught of Babylon was a shadow and partial fulfillment of the prophesy. Personally, I wonder if the ultimate fulfillment might be still to come? Any bible whizs out there?
How one feels about a belief does not make it true. What made Jesus true was that He did heal multitudes and multitudes, was witnessed to control nature itself, beasts and elements, etc. And, that He rose from the actual dead, and was seen by many. So it is not a matter of opinion.
It sets the actual calendar of the planet.
The scriptures were not fulfilled by Mohamed. So whatever he may have been, he was not the long awaited messiah.
You might feel the same way about the same state future, but it is just a belief. No science exists to back you up, and no bible.
No. Many are specific. Like the years till Messiah was to come in Dan 9.
Like the virgin birth, the town of Betlehem as the birthplace of Jesus, etc etc etc.
The details in Psalm 22 of the cross are specific.
In some cases, however, one requires the spirit to undertand the meaning.
Same thing elsewhere in the bible, such as Daniel 11, where it talks of some bad king, then launches right to the time of the AntiChrist. Etc.
Well, my tactic is to get saved, and maybe unravel some of the more mysterious secrets of the universe later..It would seem that having a real actual free choice would require a bad guy, though..?
He had to work out a plan for saving us. With His plan, we are changed from the inside out, and can enter in properly.
We eat and drink in heaven to. The sons of god even took wives. Jesus ate and drank after rising from the dead in His new body. Yet heaven, and His body were anything but physical only. The different state does have similarities, you know.
Well, I have looked into it. The scale tips totally, when we add the differences of the past on the one side, and the present state on the other.
No. But, since many feel that we just can't know the day or hour when the rapture will occur, and, they feel, the tribulation ids after the rapture...who could really have one? There has been a great buzz in the world foor decades now, and growing all the time, because all the pieces are in place for the events of the end to unfold. The stage is set. We simply await the curtain call.
So as of right now Egypt was never a wasteland and it was never invaded by Nebuchadnezzar. Interesting.
When you get up the science to try Cain in the Cain and Able case, get back to us. Until then, why talk about anything you can't actually deal with?So would you agree that any capital murder case that does not have eyewitnesses should be thrown out?
One involves the nature and laws of the world, and our universe. The other involves a person, ot little area, for a certain little time.What is the difference between a "localized application" of the spiritual and the "past state" spiritual?
Then let's see you overide the records of a different state past, with some proof of a present state existing then...? Should be simpple, if you had the goods.The point is that you do not need eyewitnesses to verify a phenomena.
I would assume it was different if they used present state decay methods to 'date' it. But, since the flood was around 2500 BC, they may be close on that on.A pillow lava formation was dated to 3000 B.C. Why should we assume it was formed any differently than pillow lava today?
If I sent in a son to die for them, specifically, and they said, no thanks, I would have to take it, that they preferred not to get saved.Who would prefer to go to Hell? Answer the question. Would you send a human being to hell for not loving you?
I thought I said I doubted that? Who says there even will be sin there? Do you know?So are you saying we will have the ability to sin in the New Eternal State?
No. We are all of His fold. He had many other sheep that were not there. He also says things like 'then shall ye see the son of man...' speaking of the end. We could take that 2 ways, I suppose. They, of course will see it, they are alive, you know. Also, His church, believers of the day will see it. We are all the same people.Then shouldn't it say "they" rather that "ye" (you)? It seems that Jesus was talking specifically to his disciples.
I tend to see it that way as well. But I am not an expert on prophesy, and am fairly new to that particular one. Commentators seem to think it was fulfilled. As I say, I tend to lean toward a more total fulfillment still to come.So as of right now Egypt was never a wasteland and it was never invaded by Nebuchadnezzar. Interesting.
No. God is not the only spirit that can do stuff. Some people in Indonesia, if I recall, got into hot water with that crowd, because they referred to Allah as God, I think. Apparently many of them want to make a clear distiction which God is theirs. Others perhaps, might be a little more like me, and think that many brought up in that way only know God to some degree, or about Him, by another name. Like the Great Spirit..etc.So what about the healers of other religious manuscripts? Mohammed healed people. Many miracles were attributed to Mohammed and was accompanied by eyewitnesses. According to you this makes Islam true.
It doesn't mean that the important cities of the world use it.Correction, it sets the calendar of westernized countries. The Hindu calendar is the oldest surviving calendar system.
You best google that question. There are so many.What scriptures did Christ fulfill?
The records.What evidence is there to assume the past followed a different set of physical laws?
I did a whole thread on that at EVC forums one time. I think it was one of the best threads I ever seen. But it is a bit large to fit in a little sub post.I just read something about 70 weeks. Could you be more specific?
I hope you were not talking about Micah 5.
2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Then just go on down to verse 6:
6And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
When did Jesus deliver anybody from the Assyrians?
How so? I did not read any details in Psalms 22 about a cross. Could you point it out to me?
What spirit?Ah, one of those "you have to believe before you are shown why you should believe". What if the spirit gives people conflicting understandings?
No. He was an antichrist. A shadow of things to come.And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. Daniel 11:2
Xerxes was the antichrist?
Consequences.Why would free will require a bad guy?
Why did he have to "work out a plan"? Could he not just forgive?
I look at what it is like in the future and past of the bible, and even history to some extent, and compare notes with the here and now. Simple.Then how do you decide what was different and what was the same?
When you get up the science to try Cain in the Cain and Able case, get back to us. Until then, why talk about anything you can't actually deal with?
One involves the nature and laws of the world, and our universe. The other involves a person, ot little area, for a certain little time.
Then let's see you overide the records of a different state past, with some proof of a present state existing then...? Should be simpple, if you had the goods.
I would assume it was different if they used present state decay methods to 'date' it. But, since the flood was around 2500 BC, they may be close on that on.
If I sent in a son to die for them, specifically, and they said, no thanks, I would have to take it, that they preferred not to get saved.
our approach is one of..'Aren't you more fair than mean ol God?' We don't see all the facts. Let's look at fallen angels. They will be separated from the world of men along with the devil. Is that unfair? Should the terrorists be allowed to destroy the peace and health, and security of the planet, instead? I would think not.
I thought I said I doubted that? Who says there even will be sin there? Do you know?
No. We are all of His fold. He had many other sheep that were not there. He also says things like 'then shall ye see the son of man...' speaking of the end. We could take that 2 ways, I suppose. They, of course will see it, they are alive, you know. Also, His church, believers of the day will see it. We are all the same people.
I tend to see it that way as well. But I am not an expert on prophesy, and am fairly new to that particular one. Commentators seem to think it was fulfilled. As I say, I tend to lean toward a more total fulfillment still to come.
No. God is not the only spirit that can do stuff. Some people in Indonesia, if I recall, got into hot water with that crowd, because they referred to Allah as God, I think. Apparently many of them want to make a clear distiction which God is theirs. Others perhaps, might be a little more like me, and think that many brought up in that way only know God to some degree, or about Him, by another name. Like the Great Spirit..etc.
It doesn't mean that the important cities of the world use it.
The records.
Why did Assyria have a ruler that pre dated the universe!??Prophesy does not have to occupy a whole chapter, and sometimes, we must be in the spirit enough, mid verse, to leap thousands of years into the future...
The whole chapter is a view from the cross looking down. I can give a link, that explains it very well.
What spirit?
No. He was an antichrist. A shadow of things to come.
Consequences.
Well, if you stabbed blew up a man's house, and he was severely injured, and you asked for forgiveness, that wouldn't fix all thing right away. He would still maybe be half blind, and missing a few limbs, etc. When God said don't eat that tree, or you will die, something happened when they did eat. A little hug would not change that.
The universe was 'wired' into us remember! Adam, like Jesus was over nature. And all creatures. Adam and Eve had just cut themselves off from God, separated themselves, and entered the area of sin, and evil. ..Death. Fixing it for man would apparently not be quick, painless, or easy. Free will is nothing to be trifled with.
Okay, it seems you support throwing out criminal cases that do not have eyewitnesses.
Where in the geologic record are you looking? What sort of evidence should we find there? Who was it, exactly that was looking for a universe state change in the dirt, and rocks, exactly?? get serious.All I can say is there is no evidence anywhere in the geologic record, or in the records of civilizations that were around during the period of this supposed "split".
So why would pillow lava form differently in the "different state" past? If it is formed underwater now, why not then?
Says you. Apparently it doesn't work that way.God did not have to send his son in the first place. He could have just forgiven them.
I agree that people should be punished for their actions. Eternal punishment... not so much.
No, I am not saying that. I see no reason why we would become zombies there.So now you are saying we won't have free will in Heaven? If so, why didn't God just skip all of this and not create Satan or the Tree of Knowledge in the first place?
The context is for those disciples that see it really start to come down. Those would not be the ones alive then, but at the time the stuff comes down.Then why didn't Jesus specifically mention that? The context of the scripture implies he was speaking specifically to his disciples.
I'll have to look at that chapter more when I get time. It says Neb would go a certain place?I guess that means Nebuchadnezzar will have to be raised from the dead. As of right now I can't see how he could pull it off...
Whoopee do. Works that are spiritual are a dime a dozen. The issue is, was it God, or the bad spirits? The way we know bad spirits is simple. If they confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, and was raised from the dead, they are NOT of God. No agonizing needed.How do you know? Where you there to see it? There were eyewitnesses to Muhammad's great works.
Name me one major country, say in the G8 that does not use it?But it doesn't set the calendar of the whole world. Thank you for admitting that.
What records, specifically?[/qyuote] Very early history of the Egyptians and Sumerians, and the bible.
You need to know where the time travel starts and stops. I already explained that it can occur mid verse even.The point is, if you read the all of the verses, is that it is not talking about Christ. Christ never laid waste to Assyria.
That is new to me. I thought it was David lamenting over the consequences of his actions. Psalm 22 is a lament unusual in structure and in intensity of feeling. David's present distress is contrasted with God's past mercy in Psalm 22:2-12. In Psalm 22:13-22 enemies surround the psalmist. The last third is an invitation to praise God (Psalm 22:23-27), becoming a universal chorus of praise (Psalm 22:28-31).
So listen to the thing I gave you, and learn.
What if 2 lawyers have different ideas of law? Should one be disbarred? What if doctors have a different idea of what the diagnosis and drugs to treat it should be? Should one go to jail? A lot of the degree that God and His spirit impacts us, it seems to me, depends on the heart, and the measure to which the particular man has honestly sought God. Not all things have to have some single answer. Many things are not that important, so there is room for opinion. The trick is, to know what is absolute, and fact, and what isn't.Isn't it the Holy Spirit that provides the correct interpretation? What if two people, claiming inspiration from the Holy Spirit, have conflicting interpretations of scripture?
Nope. Chapter 11 launches deep through time, and starts to talk of the final leader.Well Daniel 11 is describing everything happening around the same time.
4And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
Verse four deals with Xerxes' rule coming to an end. Look at the first word of the next verse:
5And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.
The "King of the South" became strong due to the dissolution of Xerxes' kingdom. Daniel 11 has nothing to do with the future, unless firearms become obsolete and we start conducting battles with chariots, horses, and swords.
What does that have to do with having a "bad guy". People can make bad decisions without a "bad guy".
So we are expected to forgive freely yet God requires blood?
It was in that blood, that was shed, that made us no longer separate from Him. So, we are to be like Him now. That means mercy, and forgiveness. First we must have Him in us, or we could not forgive.
Where in the geologic record are you looking? What sort of evidence should we find there? Who was it, exactly that was looking for a universe state change in the dirt, and rocks, exactly?? get serious.
What civilizations do you imagine were here? Really?
Well, so far you haven't shown us a pre flood formation.So we don't have much to go on here, now do we?
No, I am not saying that. I see no reason why we would become zombies there.
I'll have to look at that chapter more when I get time. It says Neb would go a certain place?
Whoopee do. Works that are spiritual are a dime a dozen. The issue is, was it God, or the bad spirits? The way we know bad spirits is simple. If they confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, and was raised from the dead, they are NOT of God. No agonizing needed.
No. God is not the only spirit that can do stuff.
Name me one major country, say in the G8 that does not use it?..Or anywhere else for that matter?
Very early history of the Egyptians and Sumerians, and the bible.
You need to know where the time travel starts and stops. I already explained that it can occur mid verse even.
What if 2 lawyers have different ideas of law? Should one be disbarred?
What if doctors have a different idea of what the diagnosis and drugs to treat it should be? Should one go to jail?
A lot of the degree that God and His spirit impacts us, it seems to me, depends on the heart, and the measure to which the particular man has honestly sought God. Not all things have to have some single answer.
Many things are not that important, so there is room for opinion. The trick is, to know what is absolute, and fact, and what isn't.
Nope. Chapter 11 launches deep through time, and starts to talk of the final leader.
It was in that blood
, that was shed, that made us no longer separate from Him. So, we are to be like Him now. That means mercy, and forgiveness. First we must have Him in us, or we could not forgive.
I'm interested in what would disprove a different state past, what would we see if dad's hypothesis was not true. dad?What geologic evidence would support a different state past? If the laws of physics were different in the past then surely it would be apparent in the geologic record.
You tell me, if we look at gold in a deposit, what will that tell us about transparent, see through gold in New Jerusalem? You would have to compare the two, I would think! What we see in rocks is how they came to exist in this present state, with decay, and etc.You tell me. What geologic evidence would support a different state past? If the laws of physics were different in the past then surely it would be apparent in the geologic record.
Let's look at that. Show us HOW it is dated?The 6th Dynasty of Egypt. The Sixth Dynasty was founded by Teti, who had married Iput, commonly believed to be the daughter of King Unas of the Fifth Dynasty. I guess they just forgot to mention the "split" that occured.
No, 4500 years. Of course with the split at 4400 years ago, you better be real careful how you date stuff near the cusp.Anything older than 4000 years would be "pre-flood".
How do we know sin will be here then? If it isn't it won't be part of the choices!So now you are saying we will have the choice to sin.
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army. 20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor, because they worked for Me, says the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 29:19-20
It never happened.
Well, spiritual works are common. People get possessed, for example. People practice things occult. All sorts of spiritual influences. Getting some miracle doesn't mean God endorses all things of some sidebar religion. If some swami climbs a rope, that doesn't mean he is saved.That contradicts what you said in the earlier post. What was it? Oh yes!
Now you are saying spiritual works are "a dime a dozen"?
The United States. The Gregorian calendar is not the official calendar of the US. The legal code of the United States does not specifiy an offical national calendar.
The spiritual beings and gods living among men. Long lifespans.Can you give some examples?
"The" verse?? What verse? There are many such verses. For example the one I mentioned about Jesus reading the scripture, and stopping mid sentence. ..Boom, time travel..the next phrase is thousands of years in the future. Doesn't take long to travel through time for the great 'I AM', now does it!?Would you mind pointing out to me where the "time travel" occurs in the verse?
Leave the fine tuning to those that believe a particular faith. Save your head from exploding.Interpretation of law is based on personal subjections. Supposedly, people who interpret scripture claim it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Two different concepts.
How do you tell what is absolute and what isn't?
Its funny considering it never gives a specific time. Am I the only one who is intriqued at the vagueness of these prophecies?
?? If they are people, they simply need to ask for the free gift, like anyone else.Are you saying that atheists are incapable of forgiveness? It still doesn't answer the question as to why God requires blood for sin.
I realize that dad (and his fellow travellers) have trouble staying on topic, but shouldn't the discussion at least try and remain on fossil finds?
I'm interested in what would disprove a different state past, what would we see if dad's hypothesis was not true. dad?
Me either. I don't believe you are billions of years old. So?I don't believe you're thousands of years old.
Yes. So what have you to say about the so called missing link being totally untrue?I realize that dad (and his fellow travellers) have trouble staying on topic, but shouldn't the discussion at least try and remain on fossil finds?
What is untrue?dad it's not good to lie. You know this and you know what you're saying is completely untrue. You know this, but seem to enjoy spreading false witness.
You're describing a different state present, the present is obviously how it is. What would we need to look for to disprove your specific different state past?We would see spirits among men. We would see no decay. We would see long lifespans. We would see fast plant growth. We would see a different light, and laws.
My dad's bigger than your...How could you disprove that there will be a new heavens? You can't. Science is a pee wee.
I would think it is not so much 'what' but where and when! Science doesn't have the power to look at the future or creation, to compare notes with how it now is. Does it?You're describing a different state present, the present is obviously how it is. What would we need to look for to disprove your specific different state past?
My dad's bigger than your...
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