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Missing link found by Norwegian scientist

TheReasoner

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I assume you get your ideas from evolutionary websites.I must admit the adding information to the genome was from a book.Its backed up from what i read on youtube.Im sure a whole bunch of common descent disciples have read the question regarding adding information to the genome....

Youtube is.... Youtube. Hardly a valid source. Look, there are creationist websites and evolutionist websites. But to believe that this debate is real is nonsensical. The debate is nonexistant. Sure, you creationists (who are almost all Americans) may believe it is, but most or nearly all arguments creationists make are utter nonsense - to put it mildly. The rest are not arguments against evolution as such but pointers to weak points acknowledged by all. And before you say that weak points automatically undermine a scientific theory you are only partially correct. Newtonian physics are severely flawed, and so are relativistic physics. Both have flaws, but both are still highly valid. As is the case with Evolution. There may be things that cannot currently be explained. But the default then is not to dismiss EVERYTHING just because of a few holes.
 
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praisejahupeople

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Well of course it's a fish. It's called the Devonian lungfish. The point is that our aquatic ancestors would be fish that lived near the shores and had rudimentary tools that could be adapted for terrestrial life (the lungfish's buoyancy device is a clear preliminary for true lungs).
Im pretty sure you cant prove anything just by pointing at a lungfish,especially making the claim we descended from something like them is wrong according to david attenborough who writes in the origin of species parttwo p55 that both the lungfish and coelcacanth are disqualified due to the bones of their skulls being totally different to the first fossil amphibians.You can deduce that one cannot be derived from another.
On the contrary, you can simply line the up in chronological order and see that each one is a minor variation on the one that came before it. Over the aeons, these minor variations add up, so you get Shire horses from small deer like animals.
Umm once again ill go to an evolutionary book to support my case.The new evolutionary timetable pp4 page 96 states that eohippus shows little modification and fails to document the transition of the horse.
Theres a massive variety in the horse family however its a leap of imagination to try and connect to anything not a horse.
Looking at the natural world,whos view has more support from what we can obseve.....mine or yours? be honest.
And yet you say evolution is false. Funny how adaptation and speciation are evolution :doh:.
For the 6th time,my problem is with the extent of your claims.I have no problem with speciation and adaptation.
 
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praisejahupeople

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Youtube is.... Youtube. Hardly a valid source. Look, there are creationist websites and evolutionist websites. But to believe that this debate is real is nonsensical. The debate is nonexistant. Sure, you creationists (who are almost all Americans) may believe it is, but most or nearly all arguments creationists make are utter nonsense - to put it mildly. The rest are not arguments against evolution as such but pointers to weak points acknowledged by all. And before you say that weak points automatically undermine a scientific theory you are only partially correct. Newtonian physics are severely flawed, and so are relativistic physics. Both have flaws, but both are still highly valid. As is the case with Evolution. There may be things that cannot currently be explained. But the default then is not to dismiss EVERYTHING just because of a few holes.

Lord have mercy im not dismissing everything,i have said a number of times that speciation and adaptation are real.Its not my fault if you dont understand for common descent to work there must be beneficial mutations.I would think thats a pretty simple concept ...no?
 
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praisejahupeople

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Once again, the question remains: how did those particular bacteria get the resistance in the first place? Bacteria do not come with resistances to all antibiotics; only a small fraction have the fluke genetics that give them a resistance. So where did that small fraction get their resistance from?


No, it is not. Antibiotics work on six major areas of the bacterium:

  • Construction of the bacterium's cell wall,
  • Structure of the cell membrane,
  • Synthesis and function of folic acid,
  • Structure, synthesis, and function, of DNA,
  • Synthesis of RNA from DNA, and
  • Structure, assembly, folding, and function, of proteins.
A mutation to any of these processes or structures increase the bacterium's ability to function in the presence of the antibiotic. Information is created by mutations, and this extra information changes how, say, proteins are synthesised.
Sometime mutations happen when the cells transport processes are damaged and inadvertantly stop the antibiotics from entering.Damaged cells are not beneficial mutations.Sometimes cells already have resistance.
One example of increased information is a point insertion mutation in the genes that encode the ion pattern in an enzyme's lock-and-key mechanism. Point insertion mutations have a chance of adding extra ions to the mechanism: information is increased, and the bacterium has an increased resistance.
Again, this simply isn't true. DNA can mutate by any number of means, and the 'information' can increase, decrease, or be replaced by new information (e.g., by chiasmata formation).


Two words: point mutation.


You haven't showed that bacteria acquire resistance by the loss of information, or that they are "significantly weaker" when released into the wild.

You also seem to forget that antibiotics exist in nature as well; how do you think bacteria survived for all those millennia if they were constantly losing 'information', if they were "significantly weaker"?


Yep: absolutely no implication whatsoever. We'll continue to advance in medicine, armed with the knowledge of how bacteria, viruses, and fungi, acquire resistances to our drugs.

I'm amazed that you still think bacteria come pre-equipped with resistances to our completely man-made drugs. What, did God created them with the foreknowledge?

Im wondering why Dawkins didnt say any of this when asked about the increase of information in the genome..You have a habit of typing information thats not supported by even evolutionary scientists.Its pretty obvious that man made antibiotics have a natural origin hence some bacterias seemingly premade resistance.
 
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TheReasoner

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Lord have mercy im not dismissing everything,i have said a number of times that speciation and adaptation are real.Its not my fault if you dont understand for common descent to work there must be beneficial mutations.I would think thats a pretty simple concept ...no?

Of course. I see. But I do - respectfully - disagree.

There are beneficial mutations everywhere, pjp. Certain people's ability to digest milk is one. The resistance to HIV/AIDS some caucasians have is a beneficial mutation. The earthworms who can nourish themselves on heavy metals have gone through beneficial mutations. Bacteria and viri mutating to being resistant to medication and chemicals... All beneficial mutations.
 
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praisejahupeople

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Any mutation that increases the chance of survival; is beneficial. Unless you mean by beneficial a mutation that sings "praise the Lord" every morning! :doh:

Sickle cell anaemia is beneficial?And you are too disrespectful.:wave:
 
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praisejahupeople

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Of course. Everyone else doesn't understand. The few creationists in the USA do, however. Goodness, what is science, empirical evidence and all that jazz to one interpretation of a few bible verses?

Would you deny that the idea that the world is 6000 years old is beyond silly? Would you deny that the argument that the second law of thermodynamics counters the theory of evolution is silly? What about the argument about the whole water-sphere around the earth? Or the idea that the flood covered the entire planet?

There are beneficial mutations everywhere, pjp. Certain people's ability to digest milk is one. The resistance to HIV/AIDS some caucasians have is a beneficial mutation. The earthworms who can nourish themselves on heavy metals have gone through beneficial mutations. Bacteria and viri mutating to being resistant to medication and chemicals... All beneficial mutations.
You havent researched this nor read anything on this thread.Im putting you on ignore for failure to research your claims,i dont have the time to refute you.
 
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TheReasoner

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You havent researched this nor read anything on this thread.Im putting you on ignore for failure to research your claims,i dont have the time to refute you.

I apologize, but I have problems seeing that there can be anything to your claims after much of what many creationists have said, which has been quite simply ridiculous, yet presented as obvious fact. Should I believe it? Every time I have taken the time to research creationists claims they have been utterly refuted. Why should this be any different?
 
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dad

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gants = elephants

To interpret giants as elephants requires some specific reason. They are big, yes. That is not enough. The insinuation is that there were plural..which seems to indicate more than one kind! It also must be something noteworthy. I used to take it to mean that the sons of god that came to women in the same chapter had big kids. It seems to make better sense to interpret is as some dinos. They are big, and noteworthy.

dinos did exist before the flood....MILLIONS of years, before the flood.
Not true. Same state dating is religion. All we do KNOW is that they were here. The dates are in your head only. I have already looked at the specific basis of dating, and it is all based on an unproven state of the past. All.


The dinos died before homo sapiens began to appear on earth.

So, no. VERY long ago, at that.
Prove it. Show me the basis of that claim. It is actually not true. So I know you cannot. Really. Be certain of that.

everytime someone tries to tell me that the earth is 6000 years old, I reach for a fossil and say "Fossil".
Really? Do you rub a rock too? Fossils of dead creatures there are! So?
 
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tanzanos

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Sickle cell anaemia is beneficial?And you are too disrespectful.:wave:
I almost died from Plasmodium Fulciparum (Cerebral malaria). I can assure you that had I been a tribesman living away from any source of medical treatment then my only hope would have been if I was suffering from sickle cell anaemia! This ailment would have been beneficial symply because although it may cause discomfort it saves lives! :wave:
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Im pretty sure you cant prove anything just by pointing at a lungfish,especially making the claim we descended from something like them is wrong according to david attenborough who writes in the origin of species parttwo p55 that both the lungfish and coelcacanth are disqualified due to the bones of their skulls being totally different to the first fossil amphibians.You can deduce that one cannot be derived from another.
I'm not saying we're descended from them. I'm saying that they're an example of how life could have evolved (in the case of the lungfish, they show that lungs could have evolved in aquatic organisms as an adaptation of a buoyancy device: oxygen in their proto-lung could diffuse into the blood, thus providing a way to get oxygen in the absence of water).

Likewise, the 'elbowed' fish shows how limbs that were primarily used for swimming could be adapted to move on land.

Obviously we're not descended from modern fish; our ancestors lived in the past. We are descended from tetrapods, which share a common ancestor with lungfish and coelacanths.

Umm once again ill go to an evolutionary book to support my case.The new evolutionary timetable pp4 page 96 states that eohippus shows little modification and fails to document the transition of the horse.
Quote-mining is an ugly practice, praisejahupeople. The actual text is as follows (your extract is in bold):

Page 4:
"The fossil record of horses also testifies to an episodic tempo for evolution, and this is particularly notable because for decades the record of ancient horses was heralded as the classic illustration of gradual transformation. Although this fossil record, like all others, is incomplete, so that it fails to document the full history of the horse family, one of its striking revelations is great evolutionary stability for tiny dawn horses, which, as the earliest representatives of the horse family, browsed on leaves about forty million years ago. For at least three or four million years, two species of these dawn horses roamed through woodlands of western North America. In other words, populations of these small animals replicated themselves through a million generations or so without undergoing appreciable change in form."


Pages 95-96:
"It is ironic that among the sluggishly changing species of the Bighorn Basin were members of the "dawn horse" genus Hyracotherium (formerly called Eohippus), the animal generally believed to be the distant ancestor of the modem horse. The fossil species of Hyracotherium show little evidence of evolutionary modification. One species lasted for at least three million years, and another for perhaps five million! For many years, while gradualistic thinking dominated evolutionary science, it was widely assumed that Hyracotherium had slowly but persistently turned into a more fully equine animal.
The new evidence for the stability of early Cenozoic species forces us to focus upon change by speciation involving small populations. Quantum speciation becomes our logical solution to the problem of the great mammalian radiation --a problem epitomized by the origin of bats and whales from small terrestrial mammals during twelve million years or less."

Oh, look at that! When you put the quotes back in context, your claims fall flat. You should think about researching your sources before you parrot the words of fraudster Kent Hovind.

Theres a massive variety in the horse family however its a leap of imagination to try and connect to anything not a horse.
Looking at the natural world,whos view has more support from what we can obseve.....mine or yours? be honest.
I find it ironic that you're asking me to be honest, when you yourself quote mined.

Sometime mutations happen when the cells transport processes are damaged and inadvertantly stop the antibiotics from entering.Damaged cells are not beneficial mutations.
Perhaps, but damage is not the only way to acquire antibacterial resistance. Besides, if the 'damage' is genetic, and if it only affects the reaction to antibiotics, then it really is a beneficial mutation (and it isn't damage).

Sometimes cells already have resistance.
You keep saying this, but you don't explain where they got their resistance from. If it's hereditary, and if no new 'information' is created, then all bacteria should have the resistance. Since they don't, you seem to have cornered yourself.

Im wondering why Dawkins didnt say any of this when asked about the increase of information in the genome.
What does Dawkins have to do with this?

You have a habit of typing information thats not supported by even evolutionary scientists.Its pretty obvious that man made antibiotics have a natural origin hence some acterias seemingly premade resistance.
There's a reason scientists don't base their conclusions on what seems "pretty obvious": it's almost always wrong.
First, why didn't these resistences show up during initial tests? Why is it only after several generations of evolution that new resistences emerge?
Second, it's simply not true that all man-made antibiotics have a natural origin (Trimethoprim, for instance).
Third, you continue to ignore the fact that bacteria do acquire new 'information' in the form of beneficial mutations. Lembski's E. coli experiment succicently shows this.
 
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praisejahupeople

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I'm not saying we're descended from them. I'm saying that they're an example of how life could have evolved (in the case of the lungfish, they show that lungs could have evolved in aquatic organisms as an adaptation of a buoyancy device: oxygen in their proto-lung could diffuse into the blood, thus providing a way to get oxygen in the absence of water).
That scenario is unlikely.You could say this and that but without proof on how aquatic lungs can become fully terrestrial,its just fantasy.You have no proof.The lungfish is just a variety of fish.Nothing else.Much like the coelcanth was supposed to be something transitional but ended up being just a fish.
Likewise, the 'elbowed' fish shows how limbs that were primarily used for swimming could be adapted to move on land.
See above.No proof of skeletal,skull and lung adaptation,then you pointing at various varieties means nothing.
Obviously we're not descended from modern fish; our ancestors lived in the past. We are descended from tetrapods, which share a common ancestor with lungfish and coelacanths.
No proof of added information to any organisms genome anywhere therefore your premise is wrong.Thats not what i asked you anyway.I asked you ...when you look at nature whose idea has more credibility?yours or mine?Your idea being theres no genetic barriers to animals evolving into completely different kinds or my belief that there is...
Quote-mining is an ugly practice, praisejahupeople. The actual text is as follows (your extract is in bold):

Page 4:
"The fossil record of horses also testifies to an episodic tempo for evolution, and this is particularly notable because for decades the record of ancient horses was heralded as the classic illustration of gradual transformation. Although this fossil record, like all others, is incomplete, so that it fails to document the full history of the horse family, one of its striking revelations is great evolutionary stability for tiny dawn horses, which, as the earliest representatives of the horse family, browsed on leaves about forty million years ago. For at least three or four million years, two species of these dawn horses roamed through woodlands of western North America. In other words, populations of these small animals replicated themselves through a million generations or so without undergoing appreciable change in form."
How does this disprove my line of argument?Im confused?
Pages 95-96:
"It is ironic that among the sluggishly changing species of the Bighorn Basin were members of the "dawn horse" genus Hyracotherium (formerly called Eohippus), the animal generally believed to be the distant ancestor of the modem horse. The fossil species of Hyracotherium show little evidence of evolutionary modification.
Once again how does this disprove the claims im making?
One species lasted for at least three million years, and another for perhaps five million! For many years, while gradualistic thinking dominated evolutionary science, it was widely assumed that Hyracotherium had slowly but persistently turned into a more fully equine animal.
Obviously thats what you believe.However look below..
The new evidence for the stability of early Cenozoic species forces us to focus upon change by speciation involving small populations. Quantum speciation becomes our logical solution to the problem of the great mammalian radiation --a problem epitomized by the origin of bats and whales from small terrestrial mammals during twelve million years or less."
Stability and little evidence of changes forces a whole new approach to the problem,however rapid speciation leaves little or no fossil evidence..thats rather convenient...haha
Oh, look at that! When you put the quotes back in context,
Seems they were.
your claims fall flat.
Whoa, easy there..not at all,actually thanks for bringing it all up im a slow typer and tend to type quotes out by hand,you saved me some typing.Thanks.
You should think about researching your sources before you parrot the words of fraudster Kent Hovind.
Ive watched some hovind,dude has a quick mind however i dont fully agree with him.Not sure what he has to do with this anyway.Moving on.
I find it ironic that you're asking me to be honest, when you yourself quote mined.
Well turns out the full quote supports my assertion theres no evidence for transitional forms inbetween a deer like animal and early horses.The evidence is bolded.
Perhaps, but damage is not the only way to acquire antibacterial resistance. Besides, if the 'damage' is genetic, and if it only affects the reaction to antibiotics, then it really is a beneficial mutation (and it isn't damage).
Makes bacteria weaker when the transport system is damaged.Makes them stronger only when confronted by that particular antibiotic.Not a beneficial mutation overall.
You keep saying this, but you don't explain where they got their resistance from. If it's hereditary, and if no new 'information' is created, then all bacteria should have the resistance. Since they don't, you seem to have cornered yourself.
Through variation.Not all bacteria are the same.Please understand that natural selection and speciation dont add information to the genome.
What does Dawkins have to do with this?
YouTube - Richard Dawkins stumped by creationists' question (RAW FTGE)

Strange you are claiming things that one of the worlds leading biologists couldnt think of.Maybe he was having a bad day.Or maybe you are just wrong.Hmm im not sure who to believe.
 
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Hespera

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That would be a zero on physical evidence for creationism.

Zero on any piece of data that contradicts / falsifies ToE

Items like this: "u could say this and that but without proof on how aquatic lungs can become fully terrestrial," QUOTE

I must say theos require proof of a sort that would falsify the entire bible!

its not at all clear what is meant by 'aquatic lungs" but, once a fish has started relying on air and lungs... as some do today...the the problem of breathing out of water is solved isnt it?

Esp considering that the early tetrapods were amphibians, animals generally more at home in the water than on land.
 
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dad

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That would be a zero on physical evidence for creationism.

Zero on any piece of data that contradicts / falsifies ToE
....
The TOE needs no rebuttal, it can't be falsified. Or proven. It is simply taking the created trait of evolving, especially in the far past, and dreaming it to the pond as a staring place. Yes evolution was a process and fact of life, no, it cannot mean there was no creation. The misconception was fueled by our looking at the present state, and how slow evolution is now, and assuming it was always so, as well as assuming that there was no creation, just because there is evolution as well as creation.

Nothing to it at all, except subterfuge, sleight of hand, and smoke.
 
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praisejahupeople

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That would be a zero on physical evidence for creationism.

Zero on any piece of data that contradicts / falsifies ToE
You have posted a lot here yet still havent learnt anything about the opposing point of view.Ive made it quite clear that evolution is true only to a certain degree,i find your view that there is nothing that supports design in nature very very strange.Even Dawkins admits to design in nature.

I must say theos require proof of a sort that would falsify the entire bible!
Apart from the fact that the God i worship is very much alive..you forgot about him.
its not at all clear what is meant by 'aquatic lungs" but, once a fish has started relying on air and lungs... as some do today...the the problem of breathing out of water is solved isnt it?
No,and im sure you dont understand your own beliefs.I get that impression.
 
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TheBear

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I see what the problem is.

I prefer the could be method. It gives all ideas a chance to compete for the best explanation. :thumbsup:

I'd rather have that, than mindset of deciding, once and for all, with total disregard for future discoveries, findings or reviews, dug in and defending.



The beauty of the scientific method is several fold. There are no personalities involved, (IOW, no individual is considered an authority figure). Models are constantly being reviewed and revised in the light of new data and evidence, and are occasionally overturned. There's no digging in and defending the status quo. Anything is subject to revision and even falsification in the light of new evidence and discoveries.
 
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dad

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I see what the problem is.

I prefer the could be method. It gives all ideas a chance to compete for the best explanation. :thumbsup:

I'd rather have that, than mindset of deciding, once and for all, with total disregard for future discoveries, findings or reviews, dug in and defending.



The beauty of the scientific method is several fold. There are no personalities involved, (IOW, no individual is considered an authority figure). Models are constantly being reviewed and revised in the light of new data and evidence, and are occasionally overturned. There's no digging in and defending the status quo. Anything is subject to revision and even falsification in the light of new evidence and discoveries.
Interesting. I prefer attacking,. and advancing, and not defending the so called science status quo.
 
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Hespera

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Praisej sez

riginally Posted by Hespera
That would be a zero on physical evidence for creationism.

Zero on any piece of data that contradicts / falsifies ToE
You have posted a lot here yet still havent learnt anything about the opposing point of view.Ive made it quite clear that evolution is true only to a certain degree,i find your view that there is nothing that supports design in nature very very strange.Even Dawkins admits to design in nature.

Originally Posted by Hespera
I must say theos require proof of a sort that would falsify the entire bible!
Apart from the fact that the God i worship is very much alive..you forgot about him.
Originally Posted by Hespera
its not at all clear what is meant by 'aquatic lungs" but, once a fish has started relying on air and lungs... as some do today...the the problem of breathing out of water is solved isnt it?
No,and im sure you dont understand your own beliefs.I get that impression.QUOTE///////////////

Well i said that nobody has a single piece of data that would contradict evolution, and that creationism has not one piece of data to support it.

So your response is to say I dont understand either "opposing pint of view" or evolution.

To tell me that i forget about something.

That i said something that i didnt say (about design in nature)

That my views are very very strange.

Why is it all guesses about me instead of the issue?

You said nothing that addresses the simple fact that evolution has a vast body of data to support it and creationism has zero. That is the issue, not me.

"Design" btw, would really have to be defined.

Like a snowflake has "design"? Or like a person does?
Does "design' automatically mean there was an intelligent designer?

I doubt any Dawkins said there is "intelligent design' in nature. No that it matters what he, uh "admitted', what he says has no effect on the facts.

Score remains at evolution, lots of data, creationism, zero.

Im curoius how one would explain that, in view of the assumption that biblical creationism is real and has god on its side. Seems it should be the other way around.
Any ideas why that is as it is?
 
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