Missing Divine Liturgy

[theoforos]

I have enough trouble standing up during DL. There is NO way I could do it with a 9mm hole in my knee.................................

Don't even mention kneeling/prostrating with a 9mm hole...

 

[theoforos]

Canon LXXX from the Council of Trullo (the Quinisext Council)

"IF any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, or any of those who are enumerated in the list of the clergy, or a layman, has no very grave necessity nor difficult business so as to keep him from church for a very long time, but being in town does not go to church on three consecutive Sundays—three weeks—if he is a cleric let him be deposed, but if a layman let him be cut off."

There it is! I had heard that if you don't commune in three weeks you should go to confession before your next communion and always wondered where the "rule" came from. Now I know.

I think the point is that the eucharist is the core of the life of the church and you separate yourself from the church if you don't participate in it, not that there's some angry guy watching if you go to church or not. It's just not good for you not to go.

 

[Birgitta]

If you miss Liturgy on Sunday for a worthy reason, you can always go in another day whenever the Church celebrates Liturgy and commune.

If I have to miss DL on Sunday, I'll commune on Satuday or Wednesday. It's possible in my congregation, because we have many chuches and pastors.

 

[MariaRegina]

Several priests responded (at an Orthodox retreat) that if you cannot make it to the Divine Liturgy on a regular basis, then you should try to attend Saturday Great Vespers (All-night vigil) which in parishes usually only takes about 35 minutes but sometimes 2 hours depending on whether there is a special feast day on Sunday, as occurred on Christmas in 2005. An option mentioned previously is to attend a weekday Divine Liturgy.

Here in the Southland, it was announced in several parishes, that if you plan on getting married in the Orthodox Church, then you would be expected to be attending the Divne Liturgy at least two to three times a month.

Of course, people who live long distances (more than a two hour drive) or those who are sick are excused, but not excused from praying and reading the Scriptures daily.

If there is no church locally, then people should try to start a parish mission with the blessing of the hierarch.

 

[Fotios]

Well then what happens if a Church has multiple Liturgy's a week, like everyday, or every other day?

I would consider that is a very lucky church.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I personally believe that more opportunities should be available for laypeople to learn how to pray the Hours and Typica to observe Feast days and the Lord's Day when away from church or even for daily devotion. I have bought a couple of books and I have bookmarked a few websites, but it is kind of hard to learn how to do it on your own. Even so, muddling through has its rewards

M.

 

[eoe]

The bad part isn't getting shot in the knees. It's having to stand up throughout Divine Liturgy the next week!

Funny!

 

[elizabethevangeline]

I hope that an Orthodox church gets built in time for me to go to University in Aberdeen.

It seems that Scotland hasn't even heard about Orthodoxy (apart from one church in Glasgow).

There's an Orthodox church in Edinburgh. Check out their website:
http://www.edinburgh-orthodox.org.uk

Look under "Services" they currently do offer monthly services in a variety of locations (Like Dundee, etc.) but I couldn't get the link for Aberdeen to work.

 

[Theophorus]

I personally believe that more opportunities should be available for laypeople to learn how to pray the Hours and Typica to observe Feast days and the Lord's Day when away from church or even for daily devotion. I have bought a couple of books and I have bookmarked a few websites, but it is kind of hard to learn how to do it on your own. Even so, muddling through has its rewards

M.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Monica, child of God again.

I received The Great Horologion for Christmas. I agree it would be very useful to instruct those on how to best pray the hours and do the typica. Basic instruction on tones and chanting would be useful as well. Plus a basic breakdown of reading the psalms throughout the week, the Kathismas.

 

[theoforos]

then you should try to attend Saturday Great Vespers (All-night vigil) which in parishes usually only takes about 35 minutes but sometimes 2 hours depending on whether there is a special feast day on Sunday, as occurred on Christmas in 2005.

Aren't Great Vespers something else than the all-night vigil? It's so confusing trying to keep track of the terminology in different languages and traditions...

Over here, Finland, we have Vespers (Fi. 'ehtoopalvelus'), which takes about 30-45 minutes. Most churches have it normally only Monday-Friday, if they have one at all. There's one church I know about that has it also on Saturday. Instead of regular Vespers, Great Vespers ('suuri ehtoopalvelus') are celebrated on special occasions like Christmas Eve and Good Friday.

Then there is the vigil (Fi. 'vigilia') that actually consists of three services: the Vespers, the Matins and the 1st hour. It takes about 1.5-3 hourse depending on the church and the day. Most churches have this service every Saturday plus on the day preceding a major feast.

But we also have a third one that is called all-night vigil ('kokoöinen vigilia'): it consists of the Vespers, the Matins and Divine Liturgy. It is celebrated only on special occasions and takes literally all night. I've attended it once, we started at 9 p.m. and were finished about 5 a.m. next morning.

 

[theoforos]

I received The Great Horologion for Christmas. I agree it would be very useful to instruct those on how to best pray the hours and do the typica. Basic instruction on tones and chanting would be useful as well. Plus a basic breakdown of reading the psalms throughout the week, the Kathismas.

Hey, we've got almost the same nick!

I'm planning to attend a reader service course in June at a monastery and I hope they will teach some of that stuff there.

I've been wondering how common it is for "normal" lay people to pray the hours... That would seem like a good habit to adopt.

The 1st hour, the 3rd hour, the 6th hour and the 9th hour, the Compline and the Midnight office are not that hard. The only thing you have to add is the troparion of the day.

The toughest part for me is the Vespers and the Matins, too many missing parts for me to fill in...

I've been inspired to pray the Compline by Birgitta on this board (I hope you don't mind me mentioning that, Birgitta), but I've never done the others. I don't remember if Typica has any tricky parts, but the Apostle and Gospel readings for each day can be taken from the Orthodox calendar the Finnish church is kind enough to publish every year. Maybe other churches have a similar thing?

 

[Birgitta]

I've been wondering how common it is for "normal" lay people to pray the hours... That would seem like a good habit to adopt.

I'm not sure about that either. I guess it's just recommended to pray hours.

I've been inspired to pray the Compline by Birgitta on this board (I hope you don't mind me mentioning that, Birgitta)

It's all right.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

The 1st hour, the 3rd hour, the 6th hour and the 9th hour, the Compline and the Midnight office are not that hard. The only thing you have to add is the troparion of the day.

Are you talking about just doing the prayer of the Hours or adding in the kathisma psalms, daily troparia, festal troparia and Scripture readings too? This is what I have difficulty with. If I do the Hours according to the book that I have, it takes a long time and I am not sure what I should cut out as a layperson. Maybe your book is better at explaining than mine is.

I know we don't usually talk about our prayer rules in public but perhaps we could start a new thread about the "hows" not necessarily the "how oftens." I think it could be good to just know how to do it when you want to. I certainly have nothing to be proud about concerning my prayer life Perhaps there are some in TAW who have received instruction that they could share?

M.

 

[theoforos]

Are you talking about just doing the prayer of the Hours or adding in the kathisma psalms, daily troparia, festal troparia and Scripture readings too? This is what I have difficulty with. If I do the Hours according to the book that I have, it takes a long time and I am not sure what I should cut out as a layperson. Maybe your book is better at explaining than mine is.

As for the 1st hour, the 3rd hour, the 6th hour, the 9th hour, the Compline and the Midnight Office, my Horologion already includes psalm readings, which are the same every time, i.e. you don't add any kathismas yourself. I don't know if that's a simplification they've made? I don't think there is any appointed scripture reading either. But you do add the daily and festal troparia, most of which are included elsewhere in the same book.

I can see what you mean by the priest/lay-person thing. There are quite a few things that are done differently depending on if the service is led by a priest or not. Fortunately my Horologion is quite clear on that one. It states clearly which parts are to be omitted or said differently if it's done without a priest.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

I hope that an Orthodox church gets built in time for me to go to University in Aberdeen.

It seems that Scotland hasn't even heard about Orthodoxy (apart from one church in Glasgow).


I am already missing the Divine Liturgy and I have only been away from church for 12 hours.



Ahhh thats better

There's a Patriarchate of Constantinople parish in Aberdeen that worships in English. Here are the details:

The Orthodox Community of St Matthew the Apostle, worshipping in St Ninian's Episcopal Church, 696 King Street, Seaton, Aberdeen AB24 1SJ. Contact 01224-315658. Divine Liturgy, usually first Saturday of month.

As you can see, they don't have frequent liturgies, but I hope this helps.

If you were to contact them you might find that there are other local churches which don't use English (I don't know, but I'm sure they could tell you) but I found these details on a directory of English-speaking parishes in the UK. You can find the directory here:

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/direct.htm

As you can see, there are a number of parishes in Scotland.

James

 

[theoforos]

I found the following information on the internet. Thought it might be useful when trying to find out the right kathismas in a regular western psalter. If you don't do the vespers and the matins, I guess it would be OK to replace the psalms in the rest of the hours by kathismas? The guy on whose page I found the information had found a way of doing it, but I don't have the adress any more. I just copied the information to a word file from there and forgot about the site. I guess I could try to find it again...


In the Byzantine tradition the 150 Psalms are divided up into 20 kathismata, and each kathisma into three stases. Following the numeration of the Psalms in the Septuagint or Greek Psalter:
Kathisma 1: Psalms 1-3, 4-6, 7-8
Kathisma 2: 9-10, 11-13, 14-16
Kathisma 3: 17, 18-20, 21-23
Kathisma 4: 24-26, 27-29, 30-31
Kathisma 5: 32-33, 34-35, 36
Kathisma 6: 37-39, 40-42, 43-45
Kathisma 7: 46-48, 49-50, 51-54
Kathisma 8: 55-57, 58-60, 61-63
Kathisma 9: 64-66, 67, 68-69
Kathisma 10: 70-71, 72-73, 74-76
Kathisma 11: 77, 78-80, 81-84
Kathisma 12: 85-87, 88, 89-90
Kathisma 13: 91-93, 94-96, 97-100
Kathisma 14: 101-102, 103, 104
Kathisma 15: 106, 107, 108
Kathisma 16: 109-111, 112-114, 115-117
Kathisma 17: 118:1-72, 73-131, 132-176
Kathisma 18: 119-123, 124-128, 129-133
Kathisma 19: 134-136, 137-139, 140-142
Kathisma 20: 143-144, 145,147, 148-150

The kathismata are normally distributed as follows:

Sunday: Matins 2&3, Vespers none
Monday: Matins 4&5, Vespers 6
Tuesday: Matins 7&8, Vespers 9
Wednesday: Matins 10&11, Vespers 12
Thursday: Matins 13&14, Vespers 15
Friday: Matins 19&20, Vespers 18
Saturday: Matins 16&17, Vespers 1

Also the numbering of the Psalms varies from the Septuagint (Orthodox and older Catholic Bibles) to those in modern (and all Protestant) Bibles. I place the correspondence below.

Greek Psalm #s/Hebrew Psalm #s
1-8/1-8
9/9-10
10-112/11-113
113/114-115
114-115/116
116-145/117-146
146-147/147
148-150/148-150

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I found the following information on the internet. Thought it might be useful when trying to find out the right kathismas in a regular western psalter. If you don't do the vespers and the matins, I guess it would be OK to replace the psalms in the rest of the hours by kathismas? The guy on whose page I found the information had found a way of doing it, but I don't have the adress any more. I just copied the information to a word file from there and forgot about the site. I guess I could try to find it again...


In the Byzantine tradition the 150 Psalms are divided up into 20 kathismata, and each kathisma into three stases. Following the numeration of the Psalms in the Septuagint or Greek Psalter:
Kathisma 1: Psalms 1-3, 4-6, 7-8
Kathisma 2: 9-10, 11-13, 14-16
Kathisma 3: 17, 18-20, 21-23
Kathisma 4: 24-26, 27-29, 30-31
Kathisma 5: 32-33, 34-35, 36
Kathisma 6: 37-39, 40-42, 43-45
Kathisma 7: 46-48, 49-50, 51-54
Kathisma 8: 55-57, 58-60, 61-63
Kathisma 9: 64-66, 67, 68-69
Kathisma 10: 70-71, 72-73, 74-76
Kathisma 11: 77, 78-80, 81-84
Kathisma 12: 85-87, 88, 89-90
Kathisma 13: 91-93, 94-96, 97-100
Kathisma 14: 101-102, 103, 104
Kathisma 15: 106, 107, 108
Kathisma 16: 109-111, 112-114, 115-117
Kathisma 17: 118:1-72, 73-131, 132-176
Kathisma 18: 119-123, 124-128, 129-133
Kathisma 19: 134-136, 137-139, 140-142
Kathisma 20: 143-144, 145,147, 148-150

The kathismata are normally distributed as follows:

Sunday: Matins 2&3, Vespers none
Monday: Matins 4&5, Vespers 6
Tuesday: Matins 7&8, Vespers 9
Wednesday: Matins 10&11, Vespers 12
Thursday: Matins 13&14, Vespers 15
Friday: Matins 19&20, Vespers 18
Saturday: Matins 16&17, Vespers 1

Also the numbering of the Psalms varies from the Septuagint (Orthodox and older Catholic Bibles) to those in modern (and all Protestant) Bibles. I place the correspondence below.

Greek Psalm #s/Hebrew Psalm #s
1-8/1-8
9/9-10
10-112/11-113
113/114-115
114-115/116
116-145/117-146
146-147/147
148-150/148-150

Thank you so much! I can see right off that there are some differences between this and the book that I have. Though it says it was developed by a parish for home use by lay people, I think they must have been given more verbal instruction than what they included in the book.

Thanks again for the help!

Monica