• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Missing books of the Bible?

dqhall

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2015
7,547
4,172
Florida
Visit site
✟811,723.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hello all! I hope everyone is well ☺️
So I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the subject.

•How many books have been removed from the Bible?

•Do you think they were rightfully taken out? Why or why not?


Thank you, God bless!
There were a number of false books produced or copied by the Gnostics during the third and fourth centuries AD found at Nag Hammadi, Egypt. These are not reliable enough to to be included in Bible canons. A few may contain some facts or clever sayings.
The 52 Books in the Ancient Nag Hammadi Library
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,360
4,308
Wyoming
✟158,157.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Hello all! I hope everyone is well ☺️
So I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the subject.

•How many books have been removed from the Bible?

•Do you think they were rightfully taken out? Why or why not?


Thank you, God bless!
The problem with defending the canon is that there was no divine authority involved in its compilation. It was decided upon by the tradition of fallible, uninspired men just like you and me. We may have taken books out that were inspired, and we may have books that aren't inspired in the canon. It is entirely dependent upon a tradition and one's personal conviction of the text, which has differed for many people and groups and churches throughout history. We may not want to admit it, but it is circular reasoning to defend the authority of the books we currently have.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,825
19,840
Flyoverland
✟1,372,395.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Hello all! I hope everyone is well ☺️
So I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the subject.

•How many books have been removed from the Bible?

•Do you think they were rightfully taken out? Why or why not?


Thank you, God bless!
I've got all 73 books. None have gone missing.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,825
19,840
Flyoverland
✟1,372,395.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
The problem with defending the canon is that there was no divine authority involved in its compilation. It was decided upon by the tradition of fallible, uninspired men just like you and me. We may have taken books out that were inspired, and we may have books that aren't inspired in the canon. It is entirely dependent upon a tradition and one's personal conviction of the text, which has differed for many people and groups and churches throughout history. We may not want to admit it, but it is circular reasoning to defend the authority of the books we currently have.
If we don't have a canon of Scripture, what DO we have? Pretty much nothing. you can quote me Ephesians and I can say I don't recognize that but quote you back Mark and you can say you don't recognize that. If there is no divine authority in compiling the Bible there is no Bible as such.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Feel'n the Burn of Philosophy!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,957
11,699
Space Mountain!
✟1,379,822.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hello all! I hope everyone is well ☺️
So I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the subject.

•How many books have been removed from the Bible?

•Do you think they were rightfully taken out? Why or why not?


Thank you, God bless!

TatiC, I don't think we can say any books have been "removed" from the Bible since there was never a New Testament anthology presented to the Church in the first place and each book and letter stands or falls on its own merits.

More importantly, we do have "the Church" and I think it's better to focus on who among the early names and leaders within the Church have preeminence in influencing the ways in which we approach our manufacturing of theology, along with being aware of how we approach our respective attempts at theology today.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Feel'n the Burn of Philosophy!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,957
11,699
Space Mountain!
✟1,379,822.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If we don't have a canon of Scripture, what DO we have? Pretty much nothing. you can quote me Ephesians and I can say I don't recognize that but quote you back Mark and you can say you don't recognize that. If there is no divine authority in compiling the Bible there is no Bible as such.

Oh, c'mon, Chevy! ;) I don't think any of us is required to have a faith or a construction of faith that's any different or more substantial than what Christian folks had living back in, say, A.D. 43. It's just that today, we have the advantage of having a gathered collection of literary artifacts that we each have to assess and decide if it is something we'll reasonably appropriate as a part of our place in the ongoing faith of "the Church."
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,360
4,308
Wyoming
✟158,157.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
If we don't have a canon of Scripture, what DO we have? Pretty much nothing. you can quote me Ephesians and I can say I don't recognize that but quote you back Mark and you can say you don't recognize that. If there is no divine authority in compiling the Bible there is no Bible as such.
That's a question only you can answer.
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,876
9,491
Florida
✟376,709.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Hello all! I hope everyone is well ☺️
So I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the subject.

•How many books have been removed from the Bible?

•Do you think they were rightfully taken out? Why or why not?


Thank you, God bless!

The only books ever to be removed by anyone are the deuterocanonical books called by some protestants the apocrypha. They were only removed entirely from some protestant bibles around one hundred years ago. Christianity has always used the books of the Septuagint, which was completed before the time of Christ. Protestants who object to the deuterocanonical books use the modern Jewish canon which was only finalized after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

And no, they were not "rightfully taken out" because they were taken out without any authority to do so. The Christian canon was compiled by synods of the Church, and as Jesus said:

Mat 18:19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

Mat 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
30,352
8,581
Canada
✟899,738.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
•How many books have been removed from the Bible?
How many books have been removed from which bible?

The protestant bible has the least number of books, while the ethiopian orthodox has the most.
 
Upvote 0

Yekcidmij

Presbyterian, Polymath
Feb 18, 2002
10,469
1,453
East Coast
✟262,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
•How many books have been removed from the Bible?

The snarky answer would be that no books have ever been removed from the canon. But since there is no complete agreement here on the canon, which books do you think were removed?

Some protestant bibles will have the "deuterocanonical" books as well (I have an ESV and NRSV on my shelf with the deuterocanon)

•Do you think they were rightfully taken out? Why or why not?

Depends on which books we're talking about.
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
16,809
6,371
✟375,279.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
If we don't have a canon of Scripture, what DO we have? Pretty much nothing.

Actually, we do have something far bigger than the Bible or any scripture and it isn't a book! Even if all the Bibles in the world are burned up even all the Torahs, all that Talmuds burned up, we'll still be perfectly fine!

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

The irony of ironies is that Jesus never promised us a "new set of scriptures" to guide us (referring to the Bible). The "all truth" in that verse couldn't possibly be the Bible, else Jesus would have said "new scriptures" instead. A LOT less confusing that way.

When Jesus parted with His disciples in John, the beloved disciple said all the things Jesus taught could not be contained in books. It's that many.

When Jesus spoke about scriptures, many Christians don't understand the context. Jesus wasn't encouraging the disciples to continue reading scriptures. Jesus is simply quoting passages from scriptures get on the same page so His Jewish audiences would understand what he's saying. He knew the Jews were either Sadducees or Pharisees where they have their own scriptures (NOT the Bible). It gets us back to John 16:13. That's all you need!
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
16,809
6,371
✟375,279.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Hello all! I hope everyone is well ☺️
So I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the subject.

•How many books have been removed from the Bible?

•Do you think they were rightfully taken out? Why or why not?


Thank you, God bless!

Jesus gave no instructions to Christians to put together a new scripture (the Bible).

Jesus promised no "divine protection" and no blessing of approval to whatever religious scripture we will publish after Jesus went back to heaven.

Jesus gave us John 16:13 instead.

Jesus warned against the arrival of false Christians who can only understand religion in the material / physical / worldly perspective, not the spiritual one and uses "Grace" as a license for lawlessness. You can read this all in the Book of Jude.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,825
19,840
Flyoverland
✟1,372,395.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Actually, we do have something far bigger than the Bible or any scripture and it isn't a book! Even if all the Bibles in the world are burned up even all the Torahs, all that Talmuds burned up, we'll still be perfectly fine!

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

The irony of ironies is that Jesus never promised us a "new set of scriptures" to guide us (referring to the Bible). The "all truth" in that verse couldn't possibly be the Bible, else Jesus would have said "new scriptures" instead. A LOT less confusing that way.

When Jesus parted with His disciples in John, the beloved disciple said all the things Jesus taught could not be contained in books. It's that many.

When Jesus spoke about scriptures, many Christians don't understand the context. Jesus wasn't encouraging the disciples to continue reading scriptures. Jesus is simply quoting passages from scriptures get on the same page so His Jewish audiences would understand what he's saying. He knew the Jews were either Sadducees or Pharisees where they have their own scriptures (NOT the Bible). It gets us back to John 16:13. That's all you need!
The vibe I'm getting from pretty much all the posters in this thread is that the Bible is expendable, and nobody can know what's in or out of it anyway. Contrast that with what I heard today at mass.

"You must keep to what you have been taught and know to be true; remember who your teachers were, and how, ever since you were a child, you have known the holy scriptures – from these you can learn the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and can profitably be used for teaching, for refuting error, for guiding people’s lives and teaching them to be holy. This is how the man who is dedicated to God becomes fully equipped and ready for any good work.
Before God and before Christ Jesus who is to be judge of the living and the dead, I put this duty to you, in the name of his Appearing and of his kingdom: proclaim the message and, welcome or unwelcome, insist on it. Refute falsehood, correct error, call to obedience – but do all with patience and with the intention of teaching."

At least that's how this Catholic has been taught by his Church. Even today.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,697
29,318
Pacific Northwest
✟819,253.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Hello all! I hope everyone is well ☺️
So I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the subject.

•How many books have been removed from the Bible?

•Do you think they were rightfully taken out? Why or why not?


Thank you, God bless!

1) "How many books have been removed from the Bible?"

That depends on whether one believes the Deuterocanonical books are Canonical Scripture. The books which Martin Luther shifted into an appendix in his German translation of the Bible, what Protestants usually call "The Apocrypha" (this term is misleading, as the term "apocrypha" often refers to a lot of different kinds of books, specifically books that were never considered canonical by anyone). And which remained in Protestant Bibles until the late 19th century, when English-language Bible publishers started printing Bibles without them.

Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians who believe the Deuterocanonicals are fully inspired Scripture consider their absence in Protestant Bibles to be a case of removing books from the Bible. Protestants who do not accept the Deuterocanonicals as Scripture don't consider them to be books removed from the Bible as they don't believe they ever belonged in the Bible in the first place.

Lutherans are in the odd position of not having an official position one way or the other. As the question of whether the Deuterocanonicals are Scripture or not is an open question that has been an ongoing debate and conversation within the Christian Church for the last two thousand years. The only real solution would be an ecumenical council of the Church; but seeing as the Church is in such a fragmented state and that there hasn't been an ecumenical council (one that Lutherans and other non-Roman Catholics would recognize as ecumenical) since the 8th century, the likelihood of that isn't great.

Anything other than the Deuterocanonicals that you might read on the internet that was "removed" is simply false. The development of the Biblical Canon is a very well documented thing historically; the only books that are seriously debated are the Deuterocanonical books.

2)"Do you think they were rightfully taken out? Why or why not?"

I don't believe it is fair to accuse Martin Luther of removing any books from the Bible. I think, rather, Luther was engaging and participating in that very long and ancient conversation about the Biblical Canon. And whether one agrees with Luther's opinion or disagrees with it, he still never removed them. He kept them in the Bible, they just were kept in their own section of the Bible. The actual "removal" of these books from the Bible didn't take place until hundreds of years after Martin Luther, and was largely done by American Bible publishers in the late 1800's as a cost-saving measure. As late as the 1870's you could still find copies of the King James Version published in the United States that contained the Deuterocanonicals, the same as it always had since its original edition in 1611. The same is true of other English language Bibles of the time. However it was also in 1800's when anti-Catholic sentiment grew to some highest ever in America, and so there would have been Protestants who didn't like them in their Bible anyway, and also lots of Protestants who never bothered to read them, hence why Bible publishers stopped publishing Bibles with them.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
16,809
6,371
✟375,279.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
The vibe I'm getting from pretty much all the posters in this thread is that the Bible is expendable, and nobody can know what's in or out of it anyway. Contrast that with what I heard today at mass.

"You must keep to what you have been taught and know to be true; remember who your teachers were, and how, ever since you were a child, you have known the holy scriptures – from these you can learn the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and can profitably be used for teaching, for refuting error, for guiding people’s lives and teaching them to be holy. This is how the man who is dedicated to God becomes fully equipped and ready for any good work.
Before God and before Christ Jesus who is to be judge of the living and the dead, I put this duty to you, in the name of his Appearing and of his kingdom: proclaim the message and, welcome or unwelcome, insist on it. Refute falsehood, correct error, call to obedience – but do all with patience and with the intention of teaching."

At least that's how this Catholic has been taught by his Church. Even today.

I'm not very familiar with Catholic religion. But even traditional thinking in Protestant denominations treats the Bible as non-expendable.

It just so happens that Christians who are active on "Christians forums" tend to be unconventional. They tend to be the people who look deeper into the study of the Bible, the irony.

And it's rather ironic if you knew the Bible enough, even the Bible makes no claim about its expendability. When Jesus asks the disciples if they read the scriptures, it's simply a question and possibly a critique to their laziness at not reading scriptures often enough, not a command to read the scriptures.

Peter / Paul told that scriptures are good for instructing. However, they're not referring to the Bible here because the Bible did not exist yet. They were referring to the Torah (Old Testament only) and the letters of Paul, not together but separately.

The Bible would have Torah and the letters of Paul and among other teachings of the saints in New Testament.

But did Jesus instructed us to put together the letters of the saints and include them to the Torah to make the Bible? The simple answer is no.

The letters some of the disciples wrote were meant for newly converts, especially the Gentiles. The disciples didn't need it among themselves. It is typically understood and obviously, we only need to be introduced to the "Spirit of Truth" and then it becomes our primary guide to the Truth (John 16:13).

Because the problem with physical books, the knowledge they contain don't typically withstand the test of time as people learn more about nature, the universe with vastly improve methods of gathering and analyzing information. It forces us to twist interpretations that is often ridiculous if previous interpretations no longer agree with facts.

Jesus did command us to seek the Truth and not bend things to agree with the Truth.

Yes, the Spirit of Truth can and will also guide you in understanding the Bible. But its work doesn't end in the Bible. It guides you into ALL Truth as said in John 16:13. The problem is that most Christians don't have the patience nor the courage to look beyond the Bible. Either lazy or just hopelessly stuck, lacking faith in the Holy Spirit (they have more faith in money, houses, cars, career, than spiritual matters).
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Feel'n the Burn of Philosophy!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,957
11,699
Space Mountain!
✟1,379,822.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The vibe I'm getting from pretty much all the posters in this thread is that the Bible is expendable, and nobody can know what's in or out of it anyway. Contrast that with what I heard today at mass.

"You must keep to what you have been taught and know to be true; remember who your teachers were, and how, ever since you were a child, you have known the holy scriptures – from these you can learn the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and can profitably be used for teaching, for refuting error, for guiding people’s lives and teaching them to be holy. This is how the man who is dedicated to God becomes fully equipped and ready for any good work.
Before God and before Christ Jesus who is to be judge of the living and the dead, I put this duty to you, in the name of his Appearing and of his kingdom: proclaim the message and, welcome or unwelcome, insist on it. Refute falsehood, correct error, call to obedience – but do all with patience and with the intention of teaching."

At least that's how this Catholic has been taught by his Church. Even today.

Yeah, some of them maybe, but that's not what I said, Chevy! I don't think the Bible is expendable. However, I do think that critical thinking can be applied to the historical processes that went into canonizing this or that book or letter. :cool:
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Feel'n the Burn of Philosophy!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,957
11,699
Space Mountain!
✟1,379,822.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hello all! I hope everyone is well ☺️
So I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the subject.

•How many books have been removed from the Bible?

•Do you think they were rightfully taken out? Why or why not?


Thank you, God bless!

Essentially, it boils down to this: the books we have in our Bibles today, whether Catholic or Protestant, were decided upon by various Church councils and they did so for certain qualified reasons.

The books and letters now identified as pseudepigrapha, for instance, have been excluded from the canon because....well....they seemed to be "pseudo" in that they were deemed to be spurious and/or written too late to actually be authenticate.

Of course, I'm sure you've already heard there's a lot more to all of this, but this is the main, basic reason.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,825
19,840
Flyoverland
✟1,372,395.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Yeah, some of them maybe, but that's not what I said, Chevy! I don't think the Bible is expendable.
You are far more nuanced (in a good way) than that.
However, I do think that critical thinking can be applied to the historical processes that went into canonizing this or that book or letter. :cool:
And with that, of course I agree. But now, having a Bible, a complete one even, we have something solid, something that is now primary in building our understanding of God and our relationships to Him and each other. It is God revealing truth to us, in complex form I grant, but nonetheless real. Something the Church confirms even as the Church commissioned and compiled the texts. See Dei Verbum: Dei verbum

The drift I am getting in this thread is that the Bible does not because it cannot withstand the test of time, that God can reveal something else, even something contrary, and that is to be expected as normal. What we get then is truth that does not prevail because next year's truth can differ from this year's truth. This person's spirit can say something different than that person's spirit and we have zero way of being on the same page except maybe by accident. A close confidant of pope Francis Antonio Spadaro, says 2 + 2 can equal 5. It's the same thinking. We can transcend the old texts. The old texts were over-rated anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0