Misplaced, irrevelant, and erroneous attack.

[BABerean2]

It's all about the begots.

Abraham begot Issac

Issac begot Jacob

Jacob begot ------> modern nation of Israel.

It's simple!

Are these the begotten you are talking about?

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There is one thing the modern nation of Israel needs from us more than anything else.

They need to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

At the moment they are teaching a perversion of the Old Testament, known as the Talmud. It contains derogatory statements about Jesus.

Until they overcome their blindness toward Christ, they will remain lost.

The Old Covenant is gone, replaced by the New Covenant.

We need to tell them the truth. There is only one way of salvation.

My wife and I support two ministries that are evangelizing the Jewish people.
If you want to help the modern Jews, find a way to get the Gospel to them.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

It's no mystery really;

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

They are enemies as concerning the gospel and yet beloved in God's elective purposes.

The Deliver shall come from Sion (2nd coming) and turn ungodliness from JACOB.

Why don't men just believe that and rest a lot easier in the truth?

 

[Danoh]

Are these the begotten you are talking about?

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There is one thing the modern nation of Israel needs from us more than anything else.

They need to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

At the moment they are teaching a perversion of the Old Testament, known as the Talmud. It contains derogatory statements about Jesus.

Until they overcome their blindness toward Christ, they will remain lost.

The Old Covenant is gone, replaced by the New Covenant.

We need to tell them the truth. There is only one way of salvation.

My wife and I support two ministries that are evangelizing the Jewish people.
If you want to help the modern Jews, find a way to get the Gospel to them.

Which gospel; "walk the aisle, repeat this magic formula, shake so and so's hand," and all those other WORKS that pass for "the gospel."

"Oh, and while you're at it; the Cross was not enough - you'll be going through THE Tribulation, you know; to purge what, um, ur, the Cross missed..."

No thanks, I think I'll continue to assert "the gospel OF CHRIST."

"God commendeth His love toward us in that WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS - Christ died FOR US."

What's that?

"Believe and be saved... no, not one twitch of a muscle required on your part - NOT of works lest ANY MAN should boast."

 

[TPeterY]

It's no mystery really;

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

They are enemies as concerning the gospel and yet beloved in God's elective purposes.

The Deliver shall come from Sion (2nd coming) and turn ungodliness from JACOB.

Why don't men just believe that and rest a lot easier in the truth?

Nice Job! Saw your other thread. People that thinks the Church and Israel are one in the same need to meditate on this passage till they understand.

Romans 11:25-27 (NKJV)
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:​

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
​

.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Nice Job! Saw your other thread. People that thinks the Church and Israel are one in the same need to meditate on this passage till they understand.

Romans 11:25-27 (NKJV)
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:​

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
​

.

Nice job to you as well! I like the way this is laid out for all to see, and hopefully not ignore anymore.

 

[Bible2]

Danoh said in post 203:

"Believe and be saved... no, not one twitch of a muscle required on your part - NOT of works lest ANY MAN should boast."

Initial salvation is indeed by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

 

[riverrat]

Initial salvation is indeed by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

I don't want to miss out on salvation. Please describe what it is that I must do to be saved or to keep my salvation. Please provide scripture.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Biblewriter]

Initial salvation is indeed by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

This is the error that Galatians was written to correct.

If my salvation, or my staying saved, depends on anything I do, it is not based on the blood the Lord Jesus shed on the cross. And if it is not based on that, it is nothing but filthy rags in God's sight.

 

[Bible2]

riverrat said in post 207:

Please describe what it is that I must do to be saved or to keep my salvation.

The gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is that we can be initially saved by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46,47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

And the gospel is that we can be ultimately saved if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from any sin that we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all that we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom we have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and don't blaspheme the Spirit (Mark 3:29), and don't remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and don't worship the future Antichrist or his image or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), and continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

 

[Bible2]

Biblewriter said in post 208:

This is the error that Galatians was written to correct.

Actually, Galatians addresses the problem of believers trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 2:11-21).

Biblewriter said in post 208:

If my salvation, or my staying saved, depends on anything I do, it is not based on the blood the Lord Jesus shed on the cross.

Note that it is, with regard to ultimate salvation. For when initially saved people perform good works, they aren't trying to bribe God to forgive their sins or grant them ultimate salvation, nor are they depending on their own merit and not the finished work of the Cross. For God can't be bribed, and sins can be forgiven only through faith in Jesus and his sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26). But God does nonetheless still require that those with faith patiently continue in good works if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17-26).

Biblewriter said in post 208:

And if it is not based on that, it is nothing but filthy rags in God's sight.

That's right, for on their own, believers aren't good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10).

But note that if they continue to abide in Jesus (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while believers can't do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).

Also, Jesus has made it possible for believers not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for believers to repent and confess their sins to God and be completely forgiven if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

 

[riverrat]

The gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is that we can be initially saved by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46,47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

And the gospel is that we can be ultimately saved if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from any sin that we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all that we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom we have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and don't blaspheme the Spirit (Mark 3:29), and don't remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and don't worship the future Antichrist or his image or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), and continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

So then nobody can be saved because nobody can do what you say must be done for salvation.

 

[TPeterY]

The gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is that we can be initially saved by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46,47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

And the gospel is that we can be ultimately saved if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from any sin that we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all that we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom we have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and don't blaspheme the Spirit (Mark 3:29), and don't remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and don't worship the future Antichrist or his image or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), and continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

Bible2,

You're not getting this correctly. The rewards Christ will be bringing with Him reflects the works we have done as believers, but our salvation is solely based on what He's done on the cross. Everything you wrote above will be given to us as reward, not as salvation. Mentally, you're being Law minded thinking you can earn your way to heaven.

And it's not "can be initially saved," we are saved the moment we accept His gift. C'mon bro, this is basic stuff, you should know all this already.

The gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is that we can be initially saved by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ

.

 

[Bible2]

TPeterY said in post 212:

And it's not "can be initially saved," we are saved the moment we accept His gift.

Note that one, Biblical difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation was shown in post 206.

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at his resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

[TPeterY]

Note that one, Biblical difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation was shown in post 206.

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at his resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

Bible2, there are no such words in the bible as initial salvation and ultimate salvation. It's not written anywhere in the King James or the New King James translation. These are words you just made up to differentiate between the Gift of Salvation (John 3:16) from the Heavenly Rewards we receive at the Judgement Seat (2 Cor 5:10).

Your two separate descriptions of Initial Salvation doesn't sound alike either.

This Initial Salvation taken from post #206 sounds like "rewards for works." (2 Cor 5:10)

Initial salvation is indeed by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

This Initial Salvation taken from post #213 sounds like the Gift of Salvation (John 3:16).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Unless you can explain things effectively, please just keep it simple. John 3:16 is known as "salvation." The heavenly inheritance you receive at Christ's 2nd coming is call "reward." Please don't use words not in the bible.

Read this also. This is for your own benefit because Christians can fall away from the faith or never reach true faith. This is what will keep you from your ultimate salvation.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. ~ Hebrews 6:4-8 (NKJV)
​

Hebrews 6:4-8 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
4-6 After people have left the way of Christ, can you make them change their lives again? I am talking about people who once learned the truth, received God’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. They were blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world. But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone.
7 Some people are like land that gets plenty of rain and produces a good crop for those who farm it. That kind of land has God’s blessing. 8 But other people are like land that grows only thorns and weeds. It is worthless and in danger of being cursed by God. It will be destroyed by fire. ​

.

 

[Biblewriter]

It all comes down to this:

Are you trusting in the blood of Christ for your salvation, or are you trusting in your ability to "hold on"?

I am trusting in the blood my Lord shed for me on the cross. There is no other basis for salvation. Any trust in anything else, no matter what it is, is pure futility.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

AMEN ! !

I used to constantly think that I was no longer saved because of my wretched sinful condition. It is so wondrously liberating to even begin to know of the grace of God in Christ Jesus our Lord!

 

[Interplanner]

re being born again.
please remember the original material is spoken into a context of centuries of Judaism, where physical birth is very important for ultimate blessing. That (ancestry, descendancy) is completely deflated by Jesus saying there is another birth, which is by faith, apart from actions, ceremonies, and of course from paternity.

It is justification from our sins and yes, people do walk away from it, either by refusing to believe that justification is needed (as though we weren't sinners) or by refusing to believe that the solution provided is needed (as though some human effort or physical descendancy would work).

 

[Bible2]

TPeterY said in post 214:

. . . there are no such words in the bible as initial salvation and ultimate salvation.

That's right.

But note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

The Biblical differences between initial salvation and ultimate salvation are shown in post 213 and post 206 above.

TPeterY said in post 214:

This Initial Salvation taken from post #206 sounds like "rewards for works." (2 Cor 5:10)

Note that in post 206 above, the first sentence shows that initial salvation is obtained without any works.

TPeterY said in post 214:

This Initial Salvation taken from post #206 sounds like "rewards for works." (2 Cor 5:10)

Regarding 2 Corinthians 5:10, note that the judgment seat of Christ is not only for rewards. For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

 

[Bible2]

TPeterY said in post 214:

Christians can fall away from the faith . . .

That's right.

For Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that even saved people, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the future tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they had become initially saved before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of saved people ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the coming worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).