Misconceptions (Homosexuality)

[atoborch]

Yep. Sure do.

I guess you really want to get into this line by line so that i can prove you are a bigot, ok your funeral

1)There is no equality period for the homesexuall
a) up untill two years ago they did not even have the right in 11 states to exiersise sexuall intercourse
b) untill 1996 they did not have any employment equality rights
c) only a handfull of churches will allow openly homosexuals to join but
i)but Bill Clinton is a member of good standing with his church
ii)people can ask for forgiveness for any sin they want but oh no not homosexuality, not the Gay's they are evil little demons
2)many homosexual couples have homes and poperty that the state takes control over after one of their deaths, while a stright couple gets to keep the poperty
3)homosexuality is not a new phemoanom people have been sleeping with members of the same sex before written history and will contiune long after mankind has forgoten what a pen and paper are, get with the program gramps, the falicy of traditation is going aginst you here
4)they want to get married which means there is a tax penlty from the USFG and from many states, they want to pay more in taxes which means they want to provied for better schools, and a meriad of other social programs
5)homosexuality is not a cult it is a choice, people make choices every day that you or I may not agree with but you know what that does not make them targets for injustes, just because you have all the rights and freedoms that you want does not mean that another secotor of scocity does, nor does it mean you have the right to trump thoes right just becuase you disagre with them
6)Knowlagde is the key value in any faith, as most(all xians) religons are intersted with the presuit of Truth, we can't find what the true Truth is unless you alow the human socicty to experment, thus the meaning of that term experment, to test for data, resutls and a sumation, you don't even want to find out becuase you are just like the whites after the civil war, "them gay people they different, lets treat them like second-class citizens"
7)the will of the majorty should must respect the rights of the minorty so long as the right of the minorty do not extend past the rights of the majorty, this is the def. of equality if you don't have that you as the homosexual community does not, becuase they don't have the right to marry, either get rid of state supported marriage or allow them to join, untill then you don't have equality
8)with out equality you don't have the support of the 14th admenemnt with out that you can allow for all sorts of civil and political right abuses, infact the US was removed from the UN human rights commity in 2001 because of two things, one of which was the unfair treatment of the homosexual community, becuase of ingornat and bigoted people like yourself
9)i want my country and socity to embrase people for who they want to be(with in reason), but if that person goes to work pays their taxes and puts food on the table for themselves and their dependants then let them sleep with whom ever they see fit

That should be enough for now, i would be carefull how you respond as you are skating on pretty thin morall ice and i would hate to have to report you.

 

[Zaac]

If I remember correctly you believe that government shouldn't recognise any marriages, right? All mariages should be sectarian.

That most certainly WAS NOT me. I am an advocate of marriage as defined by the Word of God. And to that effect, people of the same sex are NOT to be married.

 

[atoborch]

With respect to marriage as a covenant with Jesus Christ, I don't understand any other position.

Maybe that is your problem, you don't understand i'm not asking for every church to acept this pratice just the state, the state can't control the church nor should the church control the state

 

[Spinrad]

That most certainly WAS NOT me. I am an advocate of marriage as defined by the Word of God. And to that effect, people of the same sex are NOT to be married.

Then I should not be married? I am a sinner first class. No one sins more than I do. And I will never repent. So surely my marrige must be severed ASAP, correct?

 

[atoborch]

Then I should not be married? I am a sinner first class. No one sins more than I do. And I will never repent. So surely my marrige must be severed ASAP, correct?

thats one heck of a point there my friend, i like your style

 

[Spinrad]

Well, I am not only NOT living in a Christly covenant I consider the whole idea of Christly covenants to be beneath the human condition. And I think marriage, being a religeous institution, should be banned from government interferance. Or pervue. The gov should dismiss all marriage liscnences and issue temporary social contracts that have only to do with a couple's legal rights during and at the time of ending said contracts.

 

[beechy]

With respect to marriage as a covenant with Jesus Christ, I don't understand any other position.

Where does the Bible prohibit or speak against two people of the same gender declaring their commitment to and love for each other before God in a ceremony presided over by a Christian minister who asks God to bless the couple and their relationship?

Also, marriage as an institution predates and exists outside of the Christian religion as a civil institution. In America today, marriage exists as a civil institution for heterosexual couples which will be considered married under the laws of any given state if they apply for and receive a marriage license from that state (here is a summary, e.g., of the California requirements for marriage). Marriage is a legal institution that carries certain legal rights and benefits. Two men or two women can't be granted such a license and receive the attendant legal rights and benefits under the laws of any state except Massachusetts. This is the inequality of which we speak . . . but I think you probably already knew that . ..

 

[Zaac]

I guess you really want to get into this line by line so that i can prove you are a bigot, ok your funeral

Wow, fortunate for me that the Jesus Christ in me is up to the challenge.

1

)There is no equality period for the homesexuall
a) up untill two years ago they did not even have the right in 11 states to exiersise sexuall intercourse
b) untill 1996 they did not have any employment equality rights
c) only a handfull of churches will allow openly homosexuals to join but
i)but Bill Clinton is a member of good standing with his church
ii)people can ask for forgiveness for any sin they want but oh no not homosexuality, not the Gay's they are evil little demons

Does God tell you that you are to be equal or does He tell you that the committing of homosexual acts is wrong?

2)many homosexual couples have homes and poperty that the state takes control over after one of their deaths, while a stright couple gets to keep the poperty

Many heterosexual unmarried couples have the same thing happen to their property after one dies.

If you want to avail yourself of your rights to drw up legal papers cedeing the property to each other in the event of one of your deaths, then do so. You don't have to be married to do so.

3)homosexuality is not a new phemoanom people have been sleeping with members of the same sex before written history and will contiune long after mankind has forgoten what a pen and paper are, get with the program gramps, the falicy of traditation is going aginst you here

What does this have to do with proving that I am a bigot. By the way, calling me names is a violation of forum policies. Watch it.

4)they want to get married which means there is a tax penlty from the USFG and from many states, they want to pay more in taxes which means they want to provied for better schools, and a meriad of other social programs

Where did you get this stuff because it's, logic wise, not making much sense?
How does this make me a bigot?

5)homosexuality is not a cult it is a choice, people make choices every day that you or I may not agree with but you know what that does not make them targets for injustes, just because you have all the rights and freedoms that you want does not mean that another secotor of scocity does, nor does it mean you have the right to trump thoes right just becuase you disagre with them

Now flip the script and tell me again just how the inability of homosexuals to marry people of the same sex is any different from my legal ability to not marry someone of the same sex?

6)Knowlagde is the key value in any faith, as most(all xians) religons are intersted with the presuit of Truth, we can't find what the true Truth is unless you alow the human socicty to experment, thus the meaning of that term experment, to test for data, resutls and a sumation, you don't even want to find out becuase you are just like the whites after the civil war, "them gay people they different, lets treat them like second-class citizens"

Now you're rambling and not saying much that is relevant to this discussion.

7)the will of the majorty should must respect the rights of the minorty so long as the right of the minorty do not extend past the rights of the majorty, this is the def. of equality if you don't have that you as the homosexual community does not, becuase they don't have the right to marry, either get rid of state supported marriage or allow them to join, untill then you don't have equality

Stop creating your own measure of equality to meet your biased wants.

8)with out equality you don't have the support of the 14th admenemnt with out that you can allow for all sorts of civil and political right abuses, infact the US was removed from the UN human rights commity in 2001 because of two things, one of which was the unfair treatment of the homosexual community, becuase of ingornat and bigoted people like yourself

You've still got the same rights as I do. Like I said, I can't marry another man either.

9)i want my country and socity to embrase people for who they want to be(with in reason), but if that person goes to work pays their taxes and puts food on the table for themselves and their dependants then let them sleep with whom ever they see fit

Within reason you say? So what if I say that you have been embraced within reason and you wanting to be embraced to the point that you want to marry someone of the sme sex is unreasonable?

And NO ONE is stopping homosexuals from sleeping with whomever they want to just like nobody is stopping heterosexuals from doing the same.

That should be enough for now, i would be carefull how you respond as you are skating on pretty thin morall ice and i would hate to have to report you.

You've got to come stronger than that for God's Word is my foundation and it's solid as a rock.

 

[Zaac]

Maybe that is your problem, you don't understand i'm not asking for every church to acept this pratice just the state, the state can't control the church nor should the church control the state

Or perhaps your problem is that you're forgetting that the state is made up of people in the church too.

And that just as the state cannot control the church, neither should your desires to redefine that which originated with the church be changed through the state.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

2. I made it very clear that I hate homosexuality as a concept, not homosexuals as people. Yet I notice at least one person directly accused me of hating homosexuals (and several others implied it). There is a huge difference and I would appreciate not being the target of slander. If I had a motto for this situation it would probably be this: Love what God loves, hate what God hates.

Such an implication or direct accusation seems deserved. Although you can claim that hallmark of anti-gay rhetoric, "love the sinner, hate the sin," it is often not consistently displayed in other things people who use that phrase say, and your posts were no exception to that occurrance. A few examples I observed:

When you directly call homosexuals perverts and perverted, that is not a statement showing love.
When you directly and libelously accuse homosexuals as being active "recruiters" of children, that is not a statement showing love.

Something must be done to warn these people of the danger of homosexuality. Of that I'm certain.

The problem is that there is no inherent danger to homosexuality.

Every single medical and behavioral science institution in the country agrees on that fact, from the American Medial Association to the American Psychological Association, et cetera.

The only reason you could have to believe that homosexuality is inherently dangerous is that you believe Christianity is true and that there are consequences for sin. Well, not everyone--not even all Christians--believe that, so perhaps the best thing to do is nothing at all and let people live their lives and not bother them unless they are harming you, which homosexuals are not doing. It just seems like you need to get over it.

4. Sexuality and race are two completely different things.

They are different things, but not completely different things.

They are both inherent properties of a person and they are both inherently harmless properties of a person.

There is no justification to object to a person's sexual orientation any more than there is any justification to object to a person's ethnicity.

Satan doesn't influence people to be black or white as he influences people to be gay, or murderous, or proud.

Frankly, that's absurd in the first place.

But in reality, evidence continually mounts showing that sexual orientation is biologically determined (and virtually every single human regards their own sexual orientation as unchosen, which only bolsters that claim).

Even just earlier this month there was a study posted in an issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences:

Savic, I., Berglund, H., Lindström, P. 2005. Brain response to putative pheromones in homosexual men. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA. 102(20):7356-61. Other studies have also indicated that the majority of identical twins have concordant sexual orientations (and keep in mind that other traits with a biological origin are not found in both identical twins--in some cases in lower incidences than has been found for incidence of homosexuality among identical twins). Possible genetic markers have been found (and keep in mind that the human genome is not yet decoded, so we don't know the specific genes that cause a wealth of biological traits, including skin color) as well as brain structural differences. There is yet to be any scientific evidence that homosexuality is a choice, however.

And just for the record, we already do have perfectly equal rights. Gay people have just as much right as I do to marry someone of the opposite gender. No one is being oppressed here.

Homosexuals are denied equal rights regarding marriage, but in also other areas. Homosexuals are actively oppressed whether you are willing to admit it or not. There is no justification to disallow gay marriage in the United States.

 

[Zaac]

Then I should not be married? I am a sinner first class. No one sins more than I do. And I will never repent. So surely my marrige must be severed ASAP, correct?

If Jesus Christ is not in your life, there is a more pressing issue than you being married.

 

[beechy]

Now flip the script and tell me again just how the inability of homosexuals to marry people of the same sex is any different from my legal ability to not marry someone of the same sex?

If you don't believe the modern institution of marriage should have anything to do with love and intimacy, then you're right.

 

[Zaac]

Where does the Bible prohibit or speak against two people of the same gender declaring their commitment to and love for each other before God in a ceremony presided over by a Christian minister who asks God to bless the couple and their relationship?

And the LORD God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.' Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: 'This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.' Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." Genesis 2:18-25

You can declare your committment and love for each other all you like. But when you start lusting in your hearts for each other, or committing acts together that God said to not commit, or when you become one with someone other than the prescribed gender with whom He says you are to be joined, then you are sinning.

Also, marriage as an institution predates and exists outside of the Christian religion as a civil institution. In America today, marriage exists as a civil institution for heterosexual couples which will be considered married under the laws of any given state if they apply for and receive a marriage license from that state (here is a summary, e.g., of the California requirements for marriage). Marriage is a legal institution that carries certain legal rights and benefits. Two men or two women can't be granted such a license and receive the attendant legal rights and benefits under the laws of any state except Massachusetts. This is the inequality of which we speak . . . but I think you probably already knew that . ..

You're talking the establishment of civil institutions, I'm talking the establishment of God's covenant and nothing you've got predates that.

 

[Spinrad]

If Jesus Christ is not in your life, there is a more pressing issue than you being married.

Don't side step the issue at hand. It's kind of like lying.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

That most certainly WAS NOT me. I am an advocate of marriage as defined by the Word of God. And to that effect, people of the same sex are NOT to be married.

Since we don't live in a Christian theocracy, such objections, (or arguing from the antiquity of your religion, which is in fact predated by earlier marriage practices; or arguing that people should worry about being Christians rather than about securing their equal rights, which is a red herring), are null and void in the United States.

 

[Zaac]

If you don't believe the modern institution of marriage should have anything to do with love and intimacy, then you're right.

The modern institution of marriage is still modeled after God's FIRST union of man and woman.

And love and intimacy for another person does not make a marriage. It takes 3 and the most important one is Jesus Christ.

 

[atoborch]

Yeah this is going to be really fun, i would really like you to go back and try again, for two basic reasons, no warrant, and no reason to prefer but lets do the line by line anyway

Wow, fortunate for me that the Jesus Christ in me is up to the challenge.

1 Does God tell you that you are to be equal or does He tell you that the committing of homosexual acts is wrong?

1) No warrant
2) No reason to prefer
3) God tells me lots of things are sin, but that does not mean that i treat someone or my self any differnt because he/she makes that choice because i know i'm just able to slip and fall where they did, you assume that you are perfect which in turn is just as much of a sin as homosexuality

Many heterosexual unmarried couples have the same thing happen to their property after one dies.

If you want to avail yourself of your rights to drw up legal papers cedeing the property to each other in the event of one of your deaths, then do so. You don't have to be married to do so.

1) Not unique
2) NO warrant
3) no reason to prefer
4) my point is there is no need for a fromal will between to homosexuals much like there is no need for a will between to hetorsexuals if gay marriage with a reality not a myth
5) you increase the burren on the homosexual comunity by making jump throught these extra steps further feeding my non-equilty argument, thanks for making my job eaiser

What does this have to do with proving that I am a bigot. By the way, calling me names is a violation of forum policies. Watch it.

Where did you get this stuff because it's, logic wise, not making much sense?
How does this make me a bigot?

1) no warrant
2) no reason to prefer
3) i did not say that i was going to type a bunch of unwarranted statements about you(that is name calling) i said i was going to prove you to be something that you are, which i don't have to even really do you keep doing a fine job your self
4) bigot=someone that descirmates aginast a class of people because of dislike of them, let see you are saying that they can't marry becuase you disagree with something they do or are thus

Now flip the script and tell me again just how the inability of homosexuals to marry people of the same sex is any different from my legal ability to not marry someone of the same sex?

1) there is non-that is the violation of equliaty right there if you are too blind to see that maybe you just never will
2) no warrant
3) no reason to prefer
4) no example
5) no impact

Now you're rambling and not saying much that is relevant to this discussion.

1) no warrant
2) no reason to prefer
3) just your opinion no logic line
4) at least i'm saying something useing examples warrants and logic and just just saying that I'm right i'm right like a two year old

Stop creating your own measure of equality to meet your biased wants.

1) no warrant
2) no reasont to prefer
3) no counter def of equality, mine stands as the only one in this conversation
4) no prof of bias
5) the defition is not unfiar of biased it is a pretty standard def of equality if you had wanted to provide you own you had a chance but you faile to again you just want to say i'm wrong and your right but never really one attempt to prove it or two tell me why your right its kind of like argureing with a two year old

You've still got the same rights as I do. Like I said, I can't marry another man either.

repeative you never tell me anything new just the same thing

Within reason you say? So what if I say that you have been embraced within reason and you wanting to be embraced to the point that you want to marry someone of the sme sex is unreasonable?

And NO ONE is stopping homosexuals from sleeping with whomever they want to just like nobody is stopping heterosexuals from doing the same.

1) no warrant
2)no reason to prefer
3) i'm not talking about sexual intercouse i'm talking about the right to have the same rights as the other sect of socity to be able marry the person you love you can't understand that why are you even commenting on this subject

You've got to come stronger than that for God's Word is my foundation and it's solid as a rock.

1) I think you need a redo on that one because you did nothing but say that you are right
2) there was no expantion on any ideas new or old you just say i win a lot, saying you win does not mean you win with a war of words you need to expalin why you win may show an example or to and explain why your logic(which you don't have a lot of) is better, you don't do any of thoes things
3) all you really did was show at least how closed minded you are and most of the people that share you point of view are as well, which just furthers my main point homosexuals don't have equal right becuase of closed minded views like yours and others
4) next time you wan to try to enter into an argument you might want try actually making an argument, not just being a closed minded two year old

 

[Zaac]

Since we don't live in a Christian theocracy, such objections, (or arguing from the antiquity of your religion, which is in fact predated by earlier marriage practices; or arguing that people should worry about being Christians rather than about securing their equal rights, which is a red herring), are null and void in the United States.

Since we do not live in a secular theocracy either, your objections to the stance of my religion STILL fails to get same -sex couples married.

And as it stands, your marrying someone of the same -sex will continue to not be honored by those of this antique religion who still have influence in this dying world.

 

[beechy]

And the LORD God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.' Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: 'This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.' Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." Genesis 2:18-25

You can declare your committment and love for each other all you like. But when you start lusting in your hearts for each other, or committing acts together that God said to not commit, or when you become one with someone other than the prescribed gender with whom He says you are to be joined, then you are sinning.

Nowhere does it say that I may not having a loving, intimate, committed relationship with someone of the same-sex (no cite because it doesn't exist). I agree that the term "marriage" is used in the Bible to refer to a union between a man and a woman. But both Paul (1 Cor. 7:7-8) and Jesus (Matthew 19:11-12) said that marriage isn't for everyone. And, again, nowhere does it say that those for whom marriage is not intended may not be in loving, intimate, committed relationships with one another. Are you arguing that the Bible is the sort of book that lists all possible permissible behavior?

You're talking the establishment of civil institutions, I'm talking the establishment of God's covenant and nothing you've got predates that.

That's right, I was talking about the civil institution. I know you don't want to talk about that and have attempted to redirect the conversation. I believe the two concepts can and should be talked about together, though, because they're often intertwined in western culture.

 

[beechy]

The modern institution of marriage is still modeled after God's FIRST union of man and woman.

This is not the country we live in. The American institution of marriage exists as a separate institution. Christian marriage is between the couple and God.

And love and intimacy for another person does not make a marriage.

That's right, a marriage in this country also requires a license and a signature from a justice of the peace. My point in bringing up love and intimacy, of course, was to make the point that insofar as those things are part of what we as a society feel marriage should be about, the right to marry is effectively denied to gay people under the current laws of most states.

It takes 3 and the most important one is Jesus Christ.

I agree that God should be involved in all of our lives and relationships, be they marriages or blessed unions.