Misconceptions about men

[Katydid]

Meanwhile, women have been facing sexual harassment, rape and quid pro quo sex demands in the work place, since, well, since people started working. And only fairly recently have the harassment and quid pro quo demands been illegal and we all know the history of how seriously rape charges have been taken in this society, until recently

I should respond to you as you did to me, OH PLEASE!! But, I won't.

Do you know how the military defines sexual harassment? How a man in the military can avoid it? NO...Well neither do men in the military. WHY? because the regulation basically states (as a matter of fact, almost word for word) that it is not what the man does or says, or his intention, it is how the woman percieves it. All it takes is her word saying that he offended her, no proof, no actual harassment. He can say "you look nice today", a look, a hand gesture, evening opening the door for her, and she can put in a complaint. You know what is bad about that, is that higher ranking soldiers have a block on their quarterly evaluations, if they get a complaint like that, then they could have one little block marked saying that they don't support the EEO policy and they will never get promoted again. She could be ending his career just because he decided to be a gentlemen.

 

[TheDag]

Hello! The most recent feminist movement was about equal pay for equal work, women being able to apply for any kind of job and be eligible for any promotions. Prior to that movement women could be refused employment based soley on their gender. Women could be asked what kind of birth control they were using in job interviews - and not hired if the answer was not satisfactory. Women could be refused credit cards and loans becasue they were women. Women could be fired from a job when they became pregnant. There was no such thing as "sexual harassment" in the workplace and domestic abuse was seldom spoken of and not considered wrong - let alone something someone could be arrested for.


Are you unequal to men? Are you lesser? Greater? Equal is not the samething as being identical. Men and women are different... but we are and should be very much equal.

WOW equal pay for equal work! I'd love to see the women in places I've worked since 1996 do equal work! Once in all these years have I seen a female coworker try and do the equal work including all the lifting (a bundle of newspapers or magazines really aren't that heavy) There was nothing the female workers did that I didn't do also. Sometimes equal when its convieniant seems to be the go to some. Oh yeah by the way the industry I work in is female dominated.

You asked how have women trampled men to make them feel useless. Talk to Tony Campolo. He and his son tried to join a group of women in protestiing against a brothel. The women told him to get lost. This sounds like trampling to me. It also sounds like these women decided all men see women as sex objects and not people. As you mentioned what offends some women doesn't offend others. Its the same with men.

Men have been impregnating and abandoning women since, well, since sex began. This is nothing new! That does not make it any more acceptable, but it hardly makes it an outcome of the feminist movement. How do you end up blaming women for men being irresponsible???? Men take the actions and make the decision to walk. Feminism has nothing to do with that.

So now that feminism has come to set things right instead of having fathers who don't walk out we have women who find a man just so they can have a baby and then they tell the man to take a hike. And don't say this doesn't happen I've seen it way more times than I care to remember.

BLIZ could you please give a detailed definition equal and also a definition of the phrase "equal rights"

This might clear up some of the arguments if we can understand what you mean by these terms.

 

[bliz]

I should respond to you as you did to me, OH PLEASE!! But, I won't.

Do you know how the military defines sexual harassment? How a man in the military can avoid it? NO...Well neither do men in the military. WHY? because the regulation basically states (as a matter of fact, almost word for word) that it is not what the man does or says, or his intention, it is how the woman percieves it. All it takes is her word saying that he offended her, no proof, no actual harassment. He can say "you look nice today", a look, a hand gesture, evening opening the door for her, and she can put in a complaint. You know what is bad about that, is that higher ranking soldiers have a block on their quarterly evaluations, if they get a complaint like that, then they could have one little block marked saying that they don't support the EEO policy and they will never get promoted again. She could be ending his career just because he decided to be a gentlemen.

And do you suggest that the military ignore sexual harassment? Sure, those kinds of absurd over-reaction are wrong, but to do nothing about sexual harassment is even worse. The next draft wil almost certainly include women. Do you want your daughter, or anyone else's daughter, in a military that ignores rape? Can you say Tailhook Scandel?

 

[bliz]

WOW equal pay for equal work! I'd love to see the women in places I've worked since 1996 do equal work! Once in all these years have I seen a female coworker try and do the equal work including all the lifting (a bundle of newspapers or magazines really aren't that heavy) There was nothing the female workers did that I didn't do also. Sometimes equal when its convieniant seems to be the go to some. Oh yeah by the way the industry I work in is female dominated.

You have the misfortune to work someplace with poor management if all employees are not expected to do their jobs. That is hardly the responsibility of feminists.

You asked how have women trampled men to make them feel useless. Talk to Tony Campolo. He and his son tried to join a group of women in protestiing against a brothel. The women told him to get lost. This sounds like trampling to me.

Being told that you are not welcome to join a protest is being "trampled"??? How fragile are you guys? I've done some work with Tony... I have every confidence that he was not "trampled" by being excluded from a protest, or that they made him feel "useless" - but thanks for the laugh!

 

[Katydid]

And do you suggest that the military ignore sexual harassment?

Of course not! I have been harassed as well, but I followed the proper channels to report it. First, because I was uncomfortable addressing the individual, I spoke with our EO rep. She spoke with him and he came and apologized. Now, though, women go straight to the IG (Inspector General) and there are ads on AFN (armed forces network) stating that this is OK. Basically the way it works is through a chain of command. Each unit has an EO rep, then the Battalian has one, and of course there are the commander etc. Going straight to the IG is walking OUTSIDE of that chain of command and it gives the man NO chance to set things right before getting pulled into an all out investigation. I don't want the military to IGNORE sexual harassment, but how is a man supposed to avoid it, when there are no guidelines as to what constitutes it. For instance, I worked with a girl who was a feminist vegetarian. Now she was an interesting person who would flirt with the guys, and then get mad if they ever tried to hold a door for her. She would get upset if they treated her like a female, i.e. carrying a heavy box for her. She never filed a complaint, but she gave very mixed signals. Basically saying "I am all woman" and then complaining when someone treated her as such. This is why I feel that there need to be guidelines as to what constitutes harassment. That is my main point.

 

[Katydid]

Quote:

You asked how have women trampled men to make them feel useless. Talk to Tony Campolo. He and his son tried to join a group of women in protestiing against a brothel. The women told him to get lost. This sounds like trampling to me.

Being told that you are not welcome to join a protest is being "trampled"??? How fragile are you guys? I've done some work with Tony... I have every confidence that he was not "trampled" by being excluded from a protest, or that they made him feel "useless" - but thanks for the laugh!

OK but turn the situation around, regardless of his personal feelings. Would a male group protesting something, be LEGALLY allowed to tell women they weren't welcome. That group would be in court by the end of the week. Yet, women can tell men they are not welcome. Another example. The PGA, there is a women's PGA, MEN ARE NOT ALLOWED!! YET, a woman took the PGA to court for not being allowed to participate in the Men's tournament. It is a double standard. Women can have all women colleges, yet the Citadel, which was all male, had to change it's policies to allow women, the women's colleges did not have to change policies. This double standard is not EQUAL treatment but PREFERENTIAL treatment.

 

[bliz]

OK but turn the situation around, regardless of his personal feelings. Would a male group protesting something, be LEGALLY allowed to tell women they weren't welcome. That group would be in court by the end of the week. Yet, women can tell men they are not welcome. Another example. The PGA, there is a women's PGA, MEN ARE NOT ALLOWED!! YET, a woman took the PGA to court for not being allowed to participate in the Men's tournament. It is a double standard. Women can have all women colleges, yet the Citadel, which was all male, had to change it's policies to allow women, the women's colleges did not have to change policies. This double standard is not EQUAL treatment but PREFERENTIAL treatment.

A group, any group, has a license to picket... and they have every right to limit who joins their protest or picketing. You and I are not legally permitted to join a group that is picketing or protesting unless the groups chooses to allow us. The Million Man March wanted to be a march of MEN. They should certainly have had, as they did, every right for it to be so.

The Citidal was a public institution taking tax dollars to educate only men in military training. Becasue they are public, and the state did not offer any military training for women, they were required to admit women. The same thing happened in Mississippi where a state run nursing program for women was required to become co-educational since there was no male nursing education offered by the state. By not admitting men, the state was keeping men out of the nursing profession, which is discrimination based on gender.

There remain private men's and women's colleges and I applaud both, but I would be up in protest if my state turned all of its universities into male or female only institutions.

 

[RThibeault]

I hate to say this, mostly because it is true. Men do the same thing with women. All I can say is in an effort to simplify things, we do not understand, we tend to generalize. It is not right, but we do it anyways.

Sorry.

 

[bliz]

Of course not! I have been harassed as well, but I followed the proper channels to report it. First, because I was uncomfortable addressing the individual, I spoke with our EO rep. She spoke with him and he came and apologized. Now, though, women go straight to the IG (Inspector General) and there are ads on AFN (armed forces network) stating that this is OK. Basically the way it works is through a chain of command. Each unit has an EO rep, then the Battalian has one, and of course there are the commander etc. Going straight to the IG is walking OUTSIDE of that chain of command and it gives the man NO chance to set things right before getting pulled into an all out investigation. I don't want the military to IGNORE sexual harassment, but how is a man supposed to avoid it, when there are no guidelines as to what constitutes it. For instance, I worked with a girl who was a feminist vegetarian. Now she was an interesting person who would flirt with the guys, and then get mad if they ever tried to hold a door for her. She would get upset if they treated her like a female, i.e. carrying a heavy box for her. She never filed a complaint, but she gave very mixed signals. Basically saying "I am all woman" and then complaining when someone treated her as such. This is why I feel that there need to be guidelines as to what constitutes harassment. That is my main point.

The military has a dreadful history when it comes to matters of sexual harassment and rape. Working through the chain of command has, historically, had no no impact on such situations whatsoever. Women who protested their treatment put their careers in jeopardy and they usually faced more abuse. That was most clearly the case at the Air Force Academy. So I understand why women do not follow the chain of command in these matters. Should they? Yes... but the chain should have been responsive to complaints in the past, and it rarely was.

Sure, a nice neat defination of sexual harassment would come in handy. But you know that the identical words can be straightforward said one way and filled with sexual innuendo said another. It's hard to make rules about inflection, and tone of voice and where someone eyes are focused. But you know full well when a guy is leering at you as opposed to looking at you. Can you prove it was a leer? Very hard to do! But does that mean it wasn't a leer? Not at all. Are some people going to confuse one with the other? Sadly, yes.

There are things to work out with men and women in the military, as in civilian life. Once upon a time when the military world was all male these things weren't a problem. Or the business world, or medicine, or education, or science or... But I don't think we should limit women's freedoms and choices until we have sorted all of this out.

 

[jazzbird]

WOW equal pay for equal work! I'd love to see the women in places I've worked since 1996 do equal work! Once in all these years have I seen a female coworker try and do the equal work including all the lifting (a bundle of newspapers or magazines really aren't that heavy) There was nothing the female workers did that I didn't do also. Sometimes equal when its convieniant seems to be the go to some. Oh yeah by the way the industry I work in is female dominated.

Wow, that was pretty insulting. Geesh. Sorry, I've stayed out of this debate, but my jaw kinda dropped on this one.

 

[Speluncher]

How fragile are you guys?

Very fragile -- we do not deserve a woman treating us as less than human because we are men. And it hurts when this happens. What, are you gonna tell us we're a bunch of wimps, now? We're not "real men" if we have feelings? Now who is setting up a stereotype?

 

[Speluncher]

It's hard to make rules about where someone eyes are focused. But you know full well when a guy is leering at you as opposed to looking at you. Can you prove it was a leer? Very hard to do! But does that mean it wasn't a leer? Not at all. Are some people going to confuse one with the other? Sadly, yes.

Because it would be certainly wrong for a man to look at a woman -- notwithstanging the fact that breast implants are a booming industry in the US, not to mention revealing clothing, make-up, etc.

The power that a woman has to inflict pain on a male because he is a male and may also be clumsy, inept, inexperienced, awkward, or nervous is simply ridiculous.

 

[bliz]

Very fragile -- we do not deserve a woman treating us as less than human because we are men. And it hurts when this happens. What, are you gonna tell us we're a bunch of wimps, now? We're not "real men" if we have feelings? Now who is setting up a stereotype?

The comment was made about a couple of guys being told that they were not welcome to join in a protest. Being told that you are not welcome at a particular gathering of people, even if the teller is rude to you, hardly classifys as not being treated as a human being.

Because it would be certainly wrong for a man to look at a woman -- notwithstanging the fact that breast implants are a booming industry in the US, not to mention revealing clothing, make-up etc.

I was making the distinction between leering (bad and sexual harassment when done in the workplace) and looking (neutral) not suggesting that men should never look at a woman.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

I think our conceptions of both genders are really screwed up.
As far as men go, it's like we're expected to be imbeciles who drink too much, look at pornography and want to sleep around, etc.
Currently we are having no problems meeting those expectations. Since we meet expectations I don't see why we are complained about so much.

 

[searle29678]

I guess you are right in a roundabout way....

 

[If Not For Grace]

This thought just crossed my mind...why do we belittle men as a whole?

"They were worthless, stupid, oppressive waste's of time only good for reproduction."

Many a man including my favorite nephew has said the same thing of WOMEN



Women's liberation, to some, meant free sex all the time like a man because

What does that indicate, a little on the CHAUV. side?

What is wrong with wanting to be, God forbid, nothing more than a housewife? ..... Wanting to stay at home makes you lazy. "If she ain't gonna work what do I want with her."

Today being a housewife is viewed by MANY as luxury most married, much less single women, can afford. Nothing is wrong with it. But it is perceived much like being wealthy. (Sterotype that the wealthy no nothing of HARD WORK). All working Mothers see themselves as doing everything housewifes do and MORE... So they view them as priviliged and lazy. (Did not say it was true just how it was viewed).

Men have been viewed as discriminating against WOMEN much as Whites did against Black. (Woment did not get the right to vote until after Black Males did). This has been true in the Workplace, in Property LAWS, and some say in marriages and homelife.

Even the language has had to change (PS you and I are PIC when we call ourselves WIFE'S, we are spouses). Wife has come to be a demeaned term like handicapped. USED to be ok, not anymore.

But men are to blame for some of it, They (Like many white people) paid no attention to the areas where they WERE unfair or demeaning. I can remember less than 5 years ago where one of the sweetest men I know and MY EMPLOYER (AN ATTORNEY) said to me regarding a problem at the office.

"Honey", Don't you worry yourself and your pretty blue eyes about it, Daddy will handle it."

HE MEANT WELL, Really..I know the man personally, He had NO ill will nor sex on his mind when he said it...

AND often the opressed become the oppressors. THUS Women are becoming the way MEN used to be in MANY ways...JMHO

 

[searle29678]

You make some good points as well....Unfortunately both sexes have contributed.

 

[If Not For Grace]

You make some good points as well....Unfortunately both sexes have contributed.

No Doubt! I am afraid it will take YEARS to undo all of this, but I have found that in recent years as I look back, all I can see is I have changed. Everything I was FOR in college I am now Against and vice versa. I just wish we could all see each other as people, and treat them accordingly.

One thing I can say is I'm glad forums such as this exist to help us with our Christian walk, which I believe will take us in that direction, (and allow us to forgive others who have not YET joined us on this path)

 

[TheDag]

Being told that you are not welcome to join a protest is being "trampled"??? How fragile are you guys? I've done some work with Tony... I have every confidence that he was not "trampled" by being excluded from a protest, or that they made him feel "useless" - but thanks for the laugh!

I'm sure Tony didn't feel trampled but my comment was also made in the context of the question have feminists gone too far. I was merely providing one example of where they went too far. If I was abrothel owner I would expect my clients to be men. If I saw a bunch of men outside as part of a protest group I would be thinkinghay they're supposed to be my clients maybe opening this brothel here wasn't such a good idea after all. So my point is that if they had been allowed to join in rather than being told to go away (which strongly suggests those women stereotyped Tony & his son) then that could only have been a good thing