Misconceptions about men

[searle29678]

This thought just crossed my mind...why do we belittle men as a whole? I'm not saying everyone does it, but you see it a lot. If a man does something we don't like we say "Oh, that's a man for you" As if their gender alone dismisses or implies stupidity in and of itself. Is that fair? Sure some men do it to women, but there are a lot of double standards. After the feminist movement it became so common for women to believe that they didn't need men. They were worthless, stupid, oppressive waste's of time only good for reproduction. Even then in some cases he didn't have to be there, "just inject me with that "man popsicle" and I'll have my own baby by myself!" And we wonder why we have a generation of men who are running out on their kids and acting like complete losers. We have lived through a generation of women telling them they are exactly that.
Women's liberation, to some, meant free sex all the time like a man because that was a woman's right. What does that teach our young boys growing up today? Sex and the City (not even the show, just watching the commmercials can make you blush) for example, our sons are seeing women on television flaunting themselves, having affairs, being promiscuous in general. Does that teach a young man to respect a woman? Because of shows and movies and attitudes like this we have men who deny their kids because of women who are sleeping with just as many people as any man ever had time to.
What about all the examples of people living together on television. We don't have to be tied down by marriage do we? We have a whole nation (me included) running over with people, men and women alike, who buy into and love the idea of getting the milk for free. No obligation sex, leave when you want, lose nothing.
Women have lost so much since the feminist movement. We have lost our rights to be feminine. What's wrong with wanting a family and a home? What is wrong with wanting to be, God forbid, nothing more than a housewife? (The hardest job I can think of) Sure, if I want to work I should be able to...if I want to go to college and educate myself, I should be able to. Now when you meet a man, sometimes even Christian men, if you don't have a job and can support yourself they won't even talk to you. Wanting to stay at home makes you lazy. "If she ain't gonna work what do I want with her." We have spent years feminizing the men that used to take such pride in being the providers, leaders and protectors of their homes and families. Now they expect us to be their equal in all things. I realize in some situations that it is impossible to avoid it, but we have a generation of children raised by day care workers instead of their mothers. Can't we trust God to provide the means to be traditional families again? Sometimes I wonder if that is why the economy is so bad and everything is so expensive. If you want to be a working wife, why not work and then have children. However, we have pushed God so far out of our nation that we have teenage mothers without fathers in the home or fathers for their babies that they have no choice but to support themselvs. It's a chain reaction. If we had never become such a high percentage of two income families, would the cost of living be so high? I don't want to ruffle any feathers or offend anyone, this is just my opinion. Feel free to share yours, of course. This is just something I have wanted to say to someone somewhere many times.

 

[MERCY@GRACE]

From the time we are little we are told boys will be boys! Both men and women make this statement regularly. Last week my boys were in our yard and got into a wrestling match w/ 2 brothers. I got onto my boys and told them it was wrong- while dh was just commenting that "they are boys- boys fight". While boys may be more agressive, I don't want them to think that behavior is expected/Accepted of them!


I was watching a show a few yrs ago, where some school girls were sexually harrased by some boys on a daily basis-when the girls finally told-the parents went to the authorities! You know what some of the "authorities" said "boys will be boys"*sigh*

I cringe when I see the woman take the male role and vice versa, and I also cringe when cristians excuse it b/c "times are a changing". Okay now I forgot your other statements and am drawing a blank LOL!

 

[searle29678]

It was quite a jumble of thoughts, really. Of course violent behavior shouldn't be expected or approved of...but what happened to the days when being a man was defined by the state of your family. Their happiness, stability, etc... When did men and their peers start recognizing manliness by the refusal to settle down, how many women they've slept with, etc... I'm sure that type of behavior has been around for a long time, but I wish it wasn't so widely accepted and condoned.

 

[hygienemom]

Women have lost so much since the feminist movement. We have lost our rights to be feminine. What's wrong with wanting a family and a home? What is wrong with wanting to be, God forbid, nothing more than a housewife? (The hardest job I can think of) Sure, if I want to work I should be able to...if I want to go to college and educate myself, I should be able to. Now when you meet a man, sometimes even Christian men, if you don't have a job and can support yourself they won't even talk to you. Wanting to stay at home makes you lazy. "If she ain't gonna work what do I want with her." We have spent years feminizing the men that used to take such pride in being the providers, leaders and protectors of their homes and families. Now they expect us to be their equal in all things. I realize in some situations that it is impossible to avoid it, but we have a generation of children raised by day care workers instead of their mothers. Can't we trust God to provide the means to be traditional families again? Sometimes I wonder if that is why the economy is so bad and everything is so expensive. If you want to be a working wife, why not work and then have children.

I have a few points to address...
I am a working mother of 3 (7, 5, and 1 year old) (I start back to work next Tues Feb.8 after being on a 1 year maternity leave-we in Canada get 1 year paid leave) and experience your attitude often. We need the second income and as a hygienist, my salary provides all the necessities working part-time. You are putting alot of the weight of the world on working mothers...we stretch ourselves thin trying to make life work and be everything to everyone without other's adding guilt. My children are loved at their daycare home and although i feel guilty about not being with my kids ALL the time, there is alot of value in what daycare homes provide. The children are expected to get along with others, being kind, considerate and gain friendships and respect authority figures. My kids are very well-adjusted and are confident in any new situation. They know that mommy and daddy love them and are supportive of them. They have never been screamed or acted when i have dropped them off at daycare or first day of Kindergarten, etc like some kids I see who have been with mom/dad exclusively. My children are not being RAISED by daycare workers...they are being loved, disciplined and taught. We don't feel that way about school teachers do we? It takes a whole community to raise children don't u think?
Dr. James Dobson commented the other day on the radio that a majority of the boys that are in gangs, in trouble with the law, etc., are being raised without a father figure in their lives. So there is alot of factors affecting how children are being raised and how they turn out. Let's not lay it all on working moms.

 

[searle29678]

This was not a statement to bash working mothers or make them seem like they are bad mothers. Quite the opposite. I just wish it wasn't necassary. If anything I was trying to address the women who choose to put their children in daycare because their career comes first. Not the women who have to help support the home and have no choice.

 

[the_man]

From the time we are little we are told boys will be boys! Both men and women make this statement regularly. Last week my boys were in our yard and got into a wrestling match w/ 2 brothers. I got onto my boys and told them it was wrong- while dh was just commenting that "they are boys- boys fight". While boys may be more agressive, I don't want them to think that behavior is expected/Accepted of them!

That really depends. Boys wrestling each other is very common. They are testing their strength, asking the question of whether they have what it takes (to be a man). Sure at church you don't expect them to throw down, but in the back yard, it's a good thing. They want adventure, they want challenges, they want battles. If you allow them to do so in healthy ways, it will prevent them from finding unhealthy ways to find adventure, challenge and battles (as you already listed in your second paragraph).

The only problem with the statement 'boys will be boys' is the fact that we sometimes say that as if it is a bad thing. Boys will be boys and boys should be boys. Girls will be girls likewise.

I was watching a show a few yrs ago, where some school girls were sexually harrased by some boys on a daily basis-when the girls finally told-the parents went to the authorities! You know what some of the "authorities" said "boys will be boys"*sigh*

Now that is just a misapplication of that phrase. What does being a boy have to do with excusing one of discipline for a crime? As if, if it were a girl that were harassing the girls, then we will do something. Ridiculous! The other thing is that, that is an example of masculine "strength" gone awry. Our society has corrupted masculinity and abused femininity that things like this happen even at the youngest of ages. It is quite deplorable.

I cringe when I see the woman take the male role and vice versa, and I also cringe when cristians excuse it b/c "times are a changing". Okay now I forgot your other statements and am drawing a blank LOL!

Yeah, times have changed, but masculinity and feminity should not be dependant on such.

 

[MERCY@GRACE]

That really depends. Boys wrestling each other is very common. They are testing their strength, asking the question of whether they have what it takes (to be a man). Sure at church you don't expect them to throw down, but in the back yard, it's a good thing. They want adventure, they want challenges, they want battles. If you allow them to do so in healthy ways, it will prevent them from finding unhealthy ways to find adventure, challenge and battles (as you already listed in your second paragraph).

The only problem with the statement 'boys will be boys' is the fact that we sometimes say that as if it is a bad thing. Boys will be boys and boys should be boys. Girls will be girls likewise.



Now that is just a misapplication of that phrase. What does being a boy have to do with excusing one of discipline for a crime? As if, if it were a girl that were harassing the girls, then we will do something. Ridiculous! The other thing is that, that is an example of masculine "strength" gone awry. Our society has corrupted masculinity and abused femininity that things like this happen even at the youngest of ages. It is quite deplorable.



Yeah, times have changed, but masculinity and feminity should not be dependant on such.

Very good points the_man.

I don't think anything is wrong w/ wrestling but it always ends up turning into a fight or someone getting hurt! When I did get on them it was more of a fight rather than "playful wrestle"! So true about boys being boys not having to be a bad connotation

SEARLE- I do think men are taught that to be a "real" man- you will provide for your family, be a good dh&father! Basically it boils down to where their circles are and who they are listening to!

 

[Katydid]

I have to say that I completely agree with the OP. The problem with where we are now is how we got there. It isn't bad that women can have a job, or a college education, or that a woman can support her family. What is wrong, is when they get there by stepping on men in the process. Now, I am not accusing anyone of doing this, as most women don't, they just rely on the ones who did. Basically, what I am saying is this, women are considered a minority, yet, it is a fact(last time I checked) that there are actually more women than men. A woman from a rich backround can still get government assisstance, but, a white man from a low income family can't get anything. We have made men feel that it is a bad thing to be a man. How many times have you gotten jokes making fun of men, basically calling them stupid, chauvanistic, immature etc. We laugh, we forward, and all the time we are stepping on men. How many shows do you see that have the men having the answers to a situation in marriage? I haven't seen many and yet I know that many men do stabalize their marriage. We have made being a man a bad thing. I completely agree with the OP. How are we going to raise strong supportive men out of our boys, when they think we are the enemy because we have crushed them so much?

 

[jd032700]

I have to say that I completely agree with the OP. The problem with where we are now is how we got there. It isn't bad that women can have a job, or a college education, or that a woman can support her family. What is wrong, is when they get there by stepping on men in the process. Now, I am not accusing anyone of doing this, as most women don't, they just rely on the ones who did. Basically, what I am saying is this, women are considered a minority, yet, it is a fact(last time I checked) that there are actually more women than men. A woman from a rich backround can still get government assisstance, but, a white man from a low income family can't get anything. We have made men feel that it is a bad thing to be a man. How many times have you gotten jokes making fun of men, basically calling them stupid, chauvanistic, immature etc. We laugh, we forward, and all the time we are stepping on men. How many shows do you see that have the men having the answers to a situation in marriage? I haven't seen many and yet I know that many men do stabalize their marriage. We have made being a man a bad thing. I completely agree with the OP. How are we going to raise strong supportive men out of our boys, when they think we are the enemy because we have crushed them so much?

 

[bliz]

This thought just crossed my mind...why do we belittle men as a whole? I'm not saying everyone does it, but you see it a lot. If a man does something we don't like we say "Oh, that's a man for you" As if their gender alone dismisses or implies stupidity in and of itself. Is that fair? Sure some men do it to women, but there are a lot of double standards.

I don't think that much of what you hear and see is belittling. A lot of it is women refusing to accept that the male way or the male perspective is the only way. Men and women do things differently, think about things different and approach things from different perspectives. For rather a long time the one and only way was the male way, just as , for a rather long time, the one and only way in our culture was the white way to do anything. Everyone was expected to see things from the white male perspective. When women say "That's a man for you!" it's a rejection of the premise that the male way is normative.

After the feminist movement it became so common for women to believe that they didn't need men. They were worthless, stupid, oppressive waste's of time only good for reproduction. Even then in some cases he didn't have to be there, "just inject me with that "man popsicle" and I'll have my own baby by myself!" And we wonder why we have a generation of men who are running out on their kids and acting like complete losers. We have lived through a generation of women telling them they are exactly that.

Hello! The most recent feminist movement was about equal pay for equal work, women being able to apply for ank kind of job and be eligible for any promotions. Prior to that movement women could be refused employment based soley on their gender. Women could be asked what kind of birth control they were using in job interviews - and not hired if the answer was not satisfactory. Women could be refused credit cards and loans becasue they were women. Women could be fired from a job when they became pregnant. There was no such thing as "sexual harassment" in the workplace and domestic abuse was seldom spoken of and not considered wrong - let alone something someone could be arrested for.

Were there then and are there now women who don't like men and consider them unecessary? Sure. But hardly a majority and rarely anything ore than a loud minority. That was not what the woman's movement was about. If you have been told that, someone has lied to you.

Women's liberation, to some, meant free sex all the time like a man because that was a woman's right. What does that teach our young boys growing up today? Sex and the City (not even the show, just watching the commmercials can make you blush) for example, our sons are seeing women on television flaunting themselves, having affairs, being promiscuous in general. Does that teach a young man to respect a woman? Because of shows and movies and attitudes like this we have men who deny their kids because of women who are sleeping with just as many people as any man ever had time to.

You are confusing sexual liberation with women's liberation. The two are not the same thing at all.

What about all the examples of people living together on television. We don't have to be tied down by marriage do we? We have a whole nation (me included) running over with people, men and women alike, who buy into and love the idea of getting the milk for free. No obligation sex, leave when you want, lose nothing.

You've have to address those concerns to the men who control what gets on TV.

Women have lost so much since the feminist movement. We have lost our rights to be feminine. What's wrong with wanting a family and a home? What is wrong with wanting to be, God forbid, nothing more than a housewife? (The hardest job I can think of) Sure, if I want to work I should be able to...if I want to go to college and educate myself, I should be able to. Now when you meet a man, sometimes even Christian men, if you don't have a job and can support yourself they won't even talk to you. Wanting to stay at home makes you lazy. "If she ain't gonna work what do I want with her."

Who on earth is stopping you from being feminine? How? The whole point of the women's movement was for women to be able to be free to choose to do what they want to do and having the freedom to do it. You not only want to be able to be an at-home wife and mother, (which you are fully free to do in this society) you want everyone to applaud your choice. Never going to happen - to anyone, no matter what choice they make.

We have spent years feminizing the men that used to take such pride in being the providers, leaders and protectors of their homes and families.

How have men been feminized?

Now they expect us to be their equal in all things.

Are you unequal to men? Are you lesser? Greater? Equal is not the samething as being identical. Men and women are different... but we are and should be very much equal.

I realize in some situations that it is impossible to avoid it, but we have a generation of children raised by day care workers instead of their mothers. Can't we trust God to provide the means to be traditional families again? Sometimes I wonder if that is why the economy is so bad and everything is so expensive. If you want to be a working wife, why not work and then have children. However, we have pushed God so far out of our nation that we have teenage mothers without fathers in the home or fathers for their babies that they have no choice but to support themselvs. It's a chain reaction. If we had never become such a high percentage of two income families, would the cost of living be so high?

Take a careful look at the Proverbs 31 woman. She earns money. She buys real estate as she takes care of her family. Why are those activities of hers so easily forgotten and glossed over? She is not someone women's lib dreamed up - she is reveared in Holy Scripture.

"Traditional" families existed for a very short time in history - post WWII when men came home from war and women left the jobs they had during the war and went home to have children - something that had been on-hold while men were occupied for years by the war.

Many families choose to have Mom focus primarily on family when kids are little. We did so. It was not easy, as far as money goes, we did without many things in order to make it happen. I find that many families are unwilling to do without the vacations and new cars and the latest fashions Please don't blame their financial choices on women having rights!

I don't want to ruffle any feathers or offend anyone, this is just my opinion. Feel free to share yours, of course. This is just something I have wanted to say to someone somewhere many times.

 

[bliz]

I cringe when I see the woman take the male role and vice versa,

What are male roles and women's roles?

It isn't bad that women can have a job, or a college education, or that a woman can support her family. What is wrong, is when they get there by stepping on men in the process. Now, I am not accusing anyone of doing this, as most women don't, they just rely on the ones who did.

Who are the women who stepped on men and exactly how did they do this?

Basically, what I am saying is this, women are considered a minority, yet, it is a fact(last time I checked) that there are actually more women than men. A woman from a rich backround can still get government assisstance, but, a white man from a low income family can't get anything.

Who considers women a minority? Are you talking about a specific woman you know getting government benifits or are you generalizing? Based on what?

We have made men feel that it is a bad thing to be a man. How many times have you gotten jokes making fun of men, basically calling them stupid, chauvanistic, immature etc. We laugh, we forward, and all the time we are stepping on men. How many shows do you see that have the men having the answers to a situation in marriage? I haven't seen many and yet I know that many men do stabalize their marriage. We have made being a man a bad thing. I completely agree with the OP. How are we going to raise strong supportive men out of our boys, when they think we are the enemy because we have crushed them so much?

How have women crushed men? Men control what you see on TV, read in the newspapers, see in the movies, the government, big business... I'm hard pressed to think of an area of business or life where women dominate.

Does your husband feel bad about being a man? Mine doesn't. I work with mostly men, and not a one of them feels bad about being a man - they are mostly pretty proud and happy that they are male. Oh, some of them take it badly when they discover that white men don't get preference over all women and men of color all the time these days, but they'll get used to the idea that they have share the planet with the rest of God's creation.

 

[InTheFlame]

I must admit I get highly irritated when I see christian women strengthening SILLY stereotypes in society. Like, 'oh, he's gay' when a man shows an interest in fashion and curtains. And, 'oh, he's male' as an excuse for a man not 'being capable' of cleaning a house. Huh? Gee, that's a great way to encourage men away from the macho, unemotional stereotypes around today.

 

[Andy Broadley]

OK so this is like a massive generalisation, but true anyway. Most (but not all) women who believe in equality are not averse to resorting to the Damsel in distress mode when the circumstances suit them. Well, I'll let you into a secret girls....


We do it too!!!! Only much better...


I can walk into a supermarket, adopt my helpless man stance and look, whilst pretending to search for some fiendishly well hidden product, and within a few minutes have two or three willing female shop workers scampering round finding things for me.

At home, if you do something badly enough (hoovering etc) you don't get asked again, and the complexities of the iron and the washing machine are way beyond a mans capabilities.


Well, that's men for you

 

[InTheFlame]

See what I mean?

I remember being told about a guy who blew up a toilet so he wouldn't be asked to clean it.

(unfortunately for him, it didn't work - he had to fix it, then clean it forevermore )

 

[Astronaut]

Does your husband feel bad about being a man? Mine doesn't. I work with mostly men, and not a one of them feels bad about being a man - they are mostly pretty proud and happy that they are male.

Do you have any sympathy for men who are ashamed of being men? Can you imagine how this could happen? Or are timid, self-hating men just the weak pieces of garbage they think that they are?

I'm sort of sensitive about this issue because my brother is extremely sad and despondent because of cultural messages that he internalized which make him regret that he was ever born a man. It does happen.

 

[InTheFlame]

Do you have any sympathy for men who are ashamed of being men? Can you imagine how this could happen? Or are timid, self-hating men just the weak pieces of garbage they think that they are?

I'm sort of sensitive about this issue because my brother is extremely sad and despondent because of cultural messages that he internalized which make him regret that he was ever born a man. It does happen.

Astronaut, what about himself does he not like?

I DO see men who are beaten down by society's expectations of them. Sadly, I see this happen in christian circles a little more often than in the secular world. Usually, it is caused by people holding up an expectation of what a 'real man' will do, say, act and like. This saddens me, especially when I see gentle, artistic men repeatedly given the message that they aren't 'real men' because they aren't showing tendencies toward violence, sports and other 'blokey' pursuits.

 

[Astronaut]

Astronaut, what about himself does he not like?

Well, to be real brief --

He is a heterosexual male who came to believe, based on Christian teaching, that his natural attractions to women were evil because they are "lusts of the flesh" and "lusts of the eyes." His counselor says that he never went through the enormous, complicated, and rewarding task facing very adolescent boy -- to "come into his own" as a sexual man. There were just too many Bible verses, and Christian books (like Every Young Man's Battle), etc. teaching him that he ought to fear and hate adult masculinity which includes physical sexual attraction.

So many repressed desires and frustrated attractions just made him very conflicted and frightened of himself and the way God made him. I don't quite understand it all, but I have asked him about it quite a bit, and this is what he describes.

Now, I don't chalk this up to feminism, but rather to well-meaning but naive and legalistic Christianity.

But, there were aspects of feminism which also hurt him -- he has always been very sensitive about not offending women and about being accepted by them. He tends to obsess about the modern feminist rules about "sexual harassment" which guage a man's conduct by any woman that might disapprove of what he's done.

Finally, he attended a college where there were a lot of posters and public awareness campaigns warning women of rapists -- and casting suspicion on any person who God gave a penis.

Now you can laugh at him, and he is probably as ridiculous as you think he is -- timid men are, indeed, quite pathetic -- but I cry with him because I love him.

 

[Andy Broadley]

ITF - 2 posts and no links yet? you're losing your touch


I'm happy I'm a man (no labour for one thing ) and I like most of the usual 'macho' stuff, but I'm also fully housetrained and am actually pretty good in the cooking dept. I can also pitch in with most of the other domestic stuff. What I don't get is why, after I've hoovered, wifey goes round and does it again (properly apparently). From what I can see it looks the same after she's done it as it did after I'd done it, and, no, I'm not daft enough to tell her that


But you don't have to be into the 'macho' bit to be a man. Nor do you have to be into flower arranging to be a woman. You are what you are, and you are who you are.

I don't know anything about this 'geting in touch with your feminine side' business, but it sounds pretty typical of the sort of thing the yoghurt knitters like to spout. All the same, I'd bet that most, if not all, men have some parts of their personality that could be classed as 'feminine'.

 

[InTheFlame]

Astronaut - poor guy Is he working through these fears?

 

[InTheFlame]

ITF - 2 posts and no links yet? you're losing your touch

*snort*

I'm happy I'm a man (no labour for one thing)

I like being female, too. I like the idea of growing a human being inside me. Although the labour is, I agree, a bit of a turn-off! As is any growth experience that involves pain (and don't they all?).

and I like most of the usual 'macho' stuff, but I'm also fully housetrained and am actually pretty good in the cooking dept. I can also pitch in with most of the other domestic stuff. What I don't get is why, after I've hoovered, wifey goes round and does it again (properly apparently). From what I can see it looks the same after she's done it as it did after I'd done it, and, no, I'm not daft enough to tell her that

Hmmm. I don't get it either. But then, we don't even have carpet anymore, so NO-ONE has to do the hoovering

But you don't have to be into the 'macho' bit to be a man. Nor do you have to be into flower arranging to be a woman. You are what you are, and you are who you are.

Hear hear! I'd love to see this emphasised more in secular AND christian circles.

I don't know anything about this 'geting in touch with your feminine side' business, but it sounds pretty typical of the sort of thing the yoghurt knitters like to spout. All the same, I'd bet that most, if not all, men have some parts of their personality that could be classed as 'feminine'.

What does a yoghurt knitter spout? For that matter, what do they knit? A yoghurt jumper sounds kinda classy...

But yes, I think most of these extra-biblical definitions of 'feminine' and 'masculine' do more harm than good... tell people they need to be fixing bits of them that they don't need to fix... while other bits go sadly deprived of attention.