Misconceptions about Atheism

PsychoSarah said:

I don't really want people to argue.

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what do you call an atheist who doesnt want to argue ...ans unique....bad joke i know but it just came to me lol

Since you were 8?

Golly me, no further comment.

PsychoSarah said:

Hey, I figured out Santa wasn't real by age 5, so I was always a questioning kind of kid.

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WHAT SANTAS NOT REAL SEZ WHO

oi_antz said:

Sure, have a sleep. But if you don't want to type the word, it doesn't mean that the word is incorrect. If you think the word is incorrect, then let me know why.

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Sorry oi_antz. My problem is that I had to back up and re-type it several times, and spell check still says it's wrong. I felt like my fingers were stuttering, I was tired, and more importantly I was joking.

Me not wanting to type it has no bearing, I agree.

My problem is that I looked up both antitheist and atheist in a number of places a few days ago, and the accepted definition was near the same. It seems either is SOMETIMES used to one who believes a god exists but doesn't accept the faith. But both usually mean one who doesn't believe a god exists at all.

So stringing the two together can't be a concise word to use either, IMO.

I just don't know of a word with that meaning, which seems odd.

PsychoSarah said:

For whatever reason, lots of people have said these following things about atheists, none of which are completely true:
1. Atheists are all immoral, and use their lack of belief to justify being sinful.
This is almost completely false. People are rarely atheist so that they are not
obligated to be decent people.
2. Atheists reject god.
Not believing in something does not mean you reject it. I doubt you believe
the events in the Harry Potter books are true, but would you say you
reject them?
3. Deep down, all atheists know they are wrong.
Deep down, all atheists question religion. Many of us hope that god exists,
but few believe it even a little. Agnostics, while more open to the possibility,
still don't make conclusions on the matter.

Christians and other theists can question what I say all they like, but how can you know how an atheist feels if you aren't one?

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I sympathize with what you are are telling us here, Sarah. And while I agree with you that a lot of Christians don't do their homework and misconstrue the atheistic position as being monolithic (similar in fashion to how some atheists misconstrue Christianity as monolithic), I think the underlying issues simply need some clarification.

As to your first premise, I think many Christians have a difficult time articulating what they perceive is going on in the atheists' heart and mind (and often end up using cliche evangelical terminology in failed attempts to communicate those perceptions). However, I think what Christians are attempting to point out is that they see that atheists have--despite the fact that atheists do attempt to 'be moral'--a different set of moral conclusions. For instance, many atheists will assert that they are being moral (and often they are being moral while using some other ethical system, such as utilitarianism, Kantian Deontology, Ethics of Care, etc.), but they end up at odds with Christian morality. So we end up with individuals who are pro-abortion rather than pro-life, advocating liberal sexually rather than abstinence and marriage continence, and so on. And in sum, from a Christian point of view, atheists who differ in ethical conclusions are considered to be 'immoral' and/or ungodly (even though we might see that the atheist is actually not doing things from a 'hedonistic' framework.) Unfortunately, Christians and Atheists often talk past each other, adding to the irritation. Additionally, being that the average American, whether Christian or not, has little idea that there are various ethical frameworks available, moral issues sometimes get boiled down to simplistic representations of moral principles, and anyone who doesn't use the same ethical code is assumed to not even be trying to be a moral.

On point 2, yes Christians don't always realize that there are different degrees of atheism, which adds to the irritation factor on both sides.

And on point 3, Christians don't always realize that their own Bible does say that people can be blinded or deluded, and not only by dis-belief but by over zealous levels of belief as well. So, it can get kind of crazy for all of us as we wake up each morning, walk out the door and attempt to contend and confront each other on all of these spiritual and social fronts.

Peace

Kylissa said:

Sorry oi_antz. My problem is that I had to back up and re-type it several times, and spell check still says it's wrong. I felt like my fingers were stuttering, I was tired, and more importantly I was joking.

Me not wanting to type it has no bearing, I agree.

My problem is that I looked up both antitheist and atheist in a number of places a few days ago, and the accepted definition was near the same. It seems either is SOMETIMES used to one who believes a god exists but doesn't accept the faith. But both usually mean one who doesn't believe a god exists at all.

So stringing the two together can't be a concise word to use either, IMO.

I just don't know of a word with that meaning, which seems odd.

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It's nice of you to apologize because I want to apologize too. I'm often a bit sharp with my words and I think it was quite rude for me to say what I said in the way I said it. Anyhow, you forgave me and saw the meaning of my message. I still don't understand why the two put together isn't a valid description of the belief. Here's how I see it:

Atheist - does not believe in a god
Antitheist - is against the belief in a god

Antitheistic-Atheist - someone who is against the belief in a god and who does not believe in a god.

Is that not what you were trying to describe? I thought it was.

oi_antz said:

It's nice of you to apologize because I want to apologize too. I'm often a bit sharp with my words and I think it was quite rude for me to say what I said in the way I said it. Anyhow, you forgave me and saw the meaning of my message. I still don't understand why the two put together isn't a valid description of the belief. Here's how I see it:

Atheist - does not believe in a god
Antitheist - is against the belief in a god

Antitheistic-Atheist - someone who is against the belief in a god and who does not believe in a god.

Is that not what you were trying to describe? I thought it was.

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Thank you for your apology too, but it want necessary. You were forgiven, I suppose, since I didn't take any offense. (again semantics lol)

I see now much better what you meant. The problem I see is that antitheist does not seem to have an agreed-upon definition? I checked several places, and the definition I saw highlighted was "does not believe in God". Maybe the problem is with the sources, but as I recall I checked Wikipedia and a handful of common dictionaries.

(And by the way, if those definitions are accepted, the hyphenated word is fine as you use it.)

Maybe the terms will become more widely agreed upon and understood? I tended to mostly use the terms atheist (to mean one who does not believe in the existence of a God) and agnostic (to mean one who is not sure if there is a god, and may believe it is impossible to know). I have nor normally used the term antitheist myself, so I looked up various sources for a definition to see if I understood it correctly.

(My spell check still dies not identify antitheist as a word.)

The word I was searching for initially was for a person who believed in the EXISTENCE of God, and yet consciously chose to reject Him. (I suppose the way the demons believe in a God, yet I would guess reject Him, since they chose to rebel.) I don't have a term for someone like that.

If they were in the faith, yet chose to leave, they are apostate? (I think?) And yet, what if they simply chose to reject from the beginning?

Such a person makes no logical sense to me, unless they totally misunderstand Who God is. I can understand a person who doesn't believe God exists "rejecting" Him, though as Sarah said, it is because in their mind there is nothing to reject. That is at least logical. But to know God and reject Him, I cannot understand. Such a person may not actually exist, because they cannot have faith to believe if God does not give it to them. The question at that point would be whether they are then capable of resisting, but I guess we get into the whole free-will vs. predestination at that point, and that wasn't my intent.

Aren't you kind of picking nits with #2?? I mean the thesaurus defines reject as:

re·ject (r-jkt)
tr.v. re·ject·ed, re·ject·ing, re·jects
1. To refuse to accept, submit to, believe, or make use of.

2. To refuse to consider or grant; deny.

3. To refuse to recognize or give affection to (a person).


Atheism is summarized as believing in no God. Therefore you do reject that there is a God. Are you trying to say that the world known definition of atheism is wrong??

Kylissa said:

Thank you for your apology too, but it want necessary. You were forgiven, I suppose, since I didn't take any offense. (again semantics lol)

I see now much better what you meant. The problem I see is that antitheist does not seem to have an agreed-upon definition? I checked several places, and the definition I saw highlighted was "does not believe in God". Maybe the problem is with the sources, but as I recall I checked Wikipedia and a handful of common dictionaries.

(And by the way, if those definitions are accepted, the hyphenated word is fine as you use it.)

Maybe the terms will become more widely agreed upon and understood? I tended to mostly use the terms atheist (to mean one who does not believe in the existence of a God) and agnostic (to mean one who is not sure if there is a god, and may believe it is impossible to know). I have nor normally used the term antitheist myself, so I looked up various sources for a definition to see if I understood it correctly.

(My spell check still dies not identify antitheist as a word.)

The word I was searching for initially was for a person who believed in the EXISTENCE of God, and yet consciously chose to reject Him. (I suppose the way the demons believe in a God, yet I would guess reject Him, since they chose to rebel.) I don't have a term for someone like that.

If they were in the faith, yet chose to leave, they are apostate? (I think?) And yet, what if they simply chose to reject from the beginning?

Such a person makes no logical sense to me, unless they totally misunderstand Who God is. I can understand a person who doesn't believe God exists "rejecting" Him, though as Sarah said, it is because in their mind there is nothing to reject. That is at least logical. But to know God and reject Him, I cannot understand. Such a person may not actually exist, because they cannot have faith to believe if God does not give it to them. The question at that point would be whether they are then capable of resisting, but I guess we get into the whole free-will vs. predestination at that point, and that wasn't my intent.

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Well, all the sources I have seen seem to agree on the same basic principle:

Antitheism is active opposition to theism.

So in my understanding, this means someone who is against the belief in a god. These people could be theists or atheists or any other type of believer, but this term specifically states that they are against the belief in at least one god. I am antitheistic sometimes, depending on how my image of a given god is at the time.

What you are saying is that these people do believe in God, yet they don't honor Him. This is something I didn't pick up on before. I would like to know more about their condition. Do they oppose Him? Do they discourage others to not honor Him? Do they honor other gods instead?

By the way, spell-check is meant to be a tool, not a replacement for your brain. Spell-checkers (so far as I know) don't have the ability to reason yet, and are limited to a defined database. What you are saying is that you won't use a word because it doesn't exist in your spell checker's database. Seems to me like you should probably add it to the database instead.

oi_antz said:

Well, all the sources I have seen seem to agree on the same basic principle:

Antitheism is active opposition to theism.

So in my understanding, this means someone who is against the belief in a god. These people could be theists or atheists or any other type of believer, but this term specifically states that they are against the belief in at least one god. I am antitheistic sometimes, depending on how my image of a given god is at the time.

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If I understand you correctly, then I could say I am antitheistic because I don't believe in Zeus? That actually makes it a much less precise term, although potentially useful in its own way if we first define which God/god we are discussing.

That's further than I want to go in this - I was really just trying to ease Sarah's discomfit at having atheists being wrongly portrayed.

What you are saying is that these people do believe in God, yet they don't honor Him. This is something I didn't pick up on before. I would like to know more about their condition. Do they oppose Him? Do they discourage others to not honor Him? Do they honor other gods instead?

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Well, I do have certain individuals in mind. Yes, they oppose Him. At times they do actively discourage others from honoring Him, as well as the fact that their vehement speech against Him also could. And no, they do not honor other gods instead, and as far as I know, believe in no others. (I am no longer in contact with these folks, so unless I already know the answers to your questions, I couldn't answer too far.)

I suspect these people actually WERE followers at one time, but I could be wrong. One claimed God was "chasing" him and had a calling for him, which he rejected, choosing instead to pursue a life of debauchery. The other seemed turned off by Christians and his impression of Christian beliefs, and seemed to truly misunderstand God.

I have seen atheists on here argue about how God must be evil, since they argue that He is to blame for everything, if He created it all. I get the impression that they don't actually believe in God, but are only trying to argue that He can't be who Christians see Him to be. But perhaps some here (or others I have encountered who argue this) actually DO believe as well. I am unsure. That does seem to be the case of the second individual I mention above.

By the way, spell-check is meant to be a tool, not a replacement for your brain. Spell-checkers (so far as I know) don't have the ability to reason yet, and are limited to a defined database. What you are saying is that you won't use a word because it doesn't exist in your spell checker's database. Seems to me like you should probably add it to the database instead.

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Now, now. I know this. And to be clear, I was not saying that I won't use a word because it isn't in the database. Many words are not in there that are more specific to particular fields - many words in biology, for example. I was only commenting that my (recently updated) spell check still did not recognize it as a word, and I'm actually a little surprised at that since it doesn't seem that obscure a term. Not trying to pick a fight with you though.

PsychoSarah said:

For whatever reason, lots of people have said these following things about atheists, none of which are completely true:
1. Atheists are all immoral, and use their lack of belief to justify being sinful.
This is almost completely false. People are rarely atheist so that they are not
obligated to be decent people.
2. Atheists reject god.
Not believing in something does not mean you reject it. I doubt you believe
the events in the Harry Potter books are true, but would you say you
reject them?
3. Deep down, all atheists know they are wrong.
Deep down, all atheists question religion. Many of us hope that god exists,
but few believe it even a little. Agnostics, while more open to the possibility,
still don't make conclusions on the matter.

Christians and other theists can question what I say all they like, but how can you know how an atheist feels if you aren't one?

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I know exactly how an atheist feels...I WAS AN ATHEIST!

#1. I was sinful because I did not care about God or the teachings of the Bible. I did not care that I was going the hell because I did not believe in Hell. I knew that there had to be something else after death but I did not know for sure what it was. I even thought that we may have been put here by little green men because, after all. There are many pics of UFO's but I had never seen one of God. I did not want to give the thought of God being real because I knew that I would have no choice but to change if I wanted to stay out of hell. I knew that there would be no more Scotch, no more porn, no more lusting and no more cursing with every breath I took. That's why, even after hearing my name roll across the sky like thunder when I was 13. I ran from God. I did not want to change, I liked who I was because I did not know any better nor did I want to hear anything about it! I used to laugh at people of faith and insult them to there face just like all of the atheists I talk to do does now.

#2.I did reject God and everything He stood for because I was an atheist. "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities" that's exactly who I was and so are the many atheists I have talked to since finding my way home. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard the same old tired replies from atheists like..you follow a 2000 year old fairy tail, the great spaghetti monster in the sky, I'm not going to serve a God who killed women and children or the best one of all. If God is real then why does He let evil befall those He claims to love so much! I have yet to talk to an atheist who does not view Christians as nothing more that a bunch of foolish people praying to something that is not real.

#3. You better believe that deep down inside I knew I was wrong. Anytime I made that stupid statement, there is no God, I knew I was wrong but I did not care. I did not want to change. Now there was times that I wanted to find my faith, you could say that it was that still small voice working on my heart. I was even blessed by a Sioux medicine man in NM one night after talking to him on the CB radio ( I'm a trucker) for the better part of the night and telling Him how I felt. He blessed me but I went right back to my sinful life even after feeling that blessing. I rejected God once more, I knew I was wrong about everything but I still ran. I knew but I ran and still disrespected Him every chance I got and for what? A life of sin!

I WASTED 39 years of my life running and you know what I got for? Nearly pulling the trigger or driving my truck off a cliff so I would not have to deal with my sorry excuse for a life. All of the answers I looked for weren't at the bottom of a bottle, on a porn sight or in the arms of a woman. When I should have been serving God I was serving my own selfish sinful desires because I did not believe in the one who gave up everything so that I would not have to suffer an eternity in hell.

So before you are so quick to judge us. You need to understand that the only reason why try to talk to you is because we are trying to help you, just like the people were doing when I was to blind to see it.

Christians say that we should not have regrets, that Christ washed our past away when He took our sins upon the Cross. But I do regret those wasted years and all of the hurtful things I said to those who were only trying to help me and it is my honest belief that when I stand before judgement. My Father will ask me why.

All I will be able to say is, I'm sorry. I just hope that will be enough.


Don't waist your life like I did because you know where a wasted life leads you? Nowhere!

Kylissa said:

If I understand you correctly, then I could say I am antitheistic because I don't believe in Zeus? That actually makes it a much less precise term, although potentially useful in its own way if we first define which God/god we are discussing.

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As I understand, you would have to be active against the believe in Zeus to be defined antitheistic, otherwise you would only be agnostic or atheist regarding Zeus.

Kylissa said:

That's further than I want to go in this - I was really just trying to ease Sarah's discomfit at having atheists being wrongly portrayed.

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Yep, it's not the right place to discuss this and was only meant to be a passing suggestion.

Kylissa said:

Well, I do have certain individuals in mind. Yes, they oppose Him. At times they do actively discourage others from honoring Him, as well as the fact that their vehement speech against Him also could. And no, they do not honor other gods instead, and as far as I know, believe in no others. (I am no longer in contact with these folks, so unless I already know the answers to your questions, I couldn't answer too far.)

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The dictionary definition of "Satan" refers to a Christian concept of a mystical person who opposes God. However, my understanding of the term is more a description of anyone in opposition to God. I remember getting this impression from a definition once upon a time, but now searching for it doesn't bring it up. I think it is reinforced by Jesus' statement to Peter "Get behind me Satan", in which Jesus seems to be either saying that Peter is believing what Satan is telling him, or that Jesus can perceive Satan in what Peter is telling Him. Whatever the right way to see it, there is a clear indication of someone who is of Christian nature actually opposing God and Jesus addressing Satan for it.

I would therefore suggest that you consider the idea that these people are believing and promoting Satanic ideas. They may also be of Christian nature at the same time, as evidenced in the example of Jesus addressing Peter.

Kylissa said:

I suspect these people actually WERE followers at one time, but I could be wrong. One claimed God was "chasing" him and had a calling for him, which he rejected, choosing instead to pursue a life of debauchery. The other seemed turned off by Christians and his impression of Christian beliefs, and seemed to truly misunderstand God.

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If they had been born again and then turned away, they could be called prodigal. If this is the case, then I believe they are still Christian (the father did not reject the son, the son rejected the father), even though they may be exercising Satanic practices more frequently than Christian practices. Any prodigal is eventually brought to repentance, remember Luke 15:4.

Another possiblity, if they are not prodigal and have fallen from the faith, is maybe they were never born again in the first place and were only believing for insincere reasons.

Kylissa said:

I have seen atheists on here argue about how God must be evil, since they argue that He is to blame for everything, if He created it all. I get the impression that they don't actually believe in God, but are only trying to argue that He can't be who Christians see Him to be. But perhaps some here (or others I have encountered who argue this) actually DO believe as well. I am unsure. That does seem to be the case of the second individual I mention above.

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There's all sorts, no two fingerprints and snow flakes etc. In any case, if they are against God, they are antitheist. Even if the god they are against is not an accurate idea of who God actually is. In that case, they have simply confused the name of the god they are against.

Kylissa said:

Now, now. I know this. And to be clear, I was not saying that I won't use a word because it isn't in the database. Many words are not in there that are more specific to particular fields - many words in biology, for example. I was only commenting that my (recently updated) spell check still did not recognize it as a word, and I'm actually a little surprised at that since it doesn't seem that obscure a term. Not trying to pick a fight with you though.

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Thankfully the dictionary seems to be better maintained. I am curious to know the manufacturer of your spell-checker (I am in IT), but to keep the thread on track, can you please just PM it to me? Thanks.