Miracles?!?!

[jehovahway]

What He does is not Biblical and is not how God's spirit works. The Bible tells of many people who are not called to teach. Only God can anoint those He sends to teach His Word to His saints. This is truly not His means.

The Bible states this paradoxical truth: not all things that are good are from God, but all things that are of God are good. This simply shows us that miracles alone are no proof that God is the source. That is why He warns us about trusting things of the spiritual realm. [Since we can not see the spiritual realm,] [we have no idea of what is there;] so, we are only to trust in Him. He gives us His spirit (Holy Spirit) to guide us and to teach us His ways.

People who call upon spirits, conjure them, seek counsel from them, etc. are being decieved by the results they obtain. They are blinded to the comprehension that their positive outcome is, in reality, a deception by the powers of darkenss, as the Bible calls them. But, if you try to tell them this, they strongly argue the opposite because they see good. They equate good with God only.

The Bible teaches that there is pleasure in sin, but only for a season. That is why we should never let feelings, emotions, and other human conditions be our source of wisdom in spiritual matters. We should never judge true divinity by what results from our experience. We do not know what these powers are doing to acheive the results that we see. Only God is to be trusted in spiritual matters. Satan distorts God's message by creating the illusion that since the outcome is good, it is God that is doing it or that I am having a spiritual encounter with God. With God, the end does not justify the means. God cares about how you do something just as much as you doing it. God judges your attitude as well as your actions.[/QU

you are in error you made the statement above that we cant see into the Spirit world.
dont try to speak for ever Christian.
i have Gift number 7 of the nine gifts of the Spirit
that allows me to see into the spirit world where Satan AND HIS ANGELS ARE.
I also have seen Gods Angels.
these Gifts only work when God wonts to make you aware of a persons condiction.
most of the time these people are not christians are they say they are but God
shows me their true condiction.

 

[Bevlina]

I understand the concept of not watching him if I don't like him, and certainly
not giving him any money if I don't like him. But do you realize the amount of
money we're talking about? He pulls in an estimated $100 million per year, to
fund his ministry. Sure, he's got overhead in the form of paying employees,
and venue rental, but we're talking rock star levels of money. Figure on twenty
meetings a year, in venues costing about $70,000. The "Vote for Change" tour
was paying that, and some of Mr Hinn's ministry stops are in hotel halls or
equally second string venues, not concert halls and stadiums. Plus, the
venue may just take gate and a nominal fee, rather than a high rental.
Let's assume he's got 1,000 people working for him, at $30,000 each. That
allows for disparity between upper tier types and bottom rung office
workers, and also for the disparity between US and foreign wages.

So. $30 million for wages to employees, assuming he employs 1000 people,
and $1.4 million for venue rental. Let's tack on another $10 million for
maintenance costs on the parsonage in California, and the orphanages in
Mexico. Roughly $42 million for expenses. So, $60 million, tax free, that
Benny's doing who knows what with, and no clear theological basis for
anything, and possibly more miracles in one night than the whole of the
New Testament.

Yes...sadly it's people like this who give christianity a bad name.

 

[Brother Charlie]

I dont know about all the 'miracles' that are glamorized on the tv, but I myself have personally had quite a miraculous angelic miracle.

 

[Bevlina]

And, so have I Charlie. But, nobody was present but God when it happened!

 

[Brother Charlie]

And, so have I Charlie. But, nobody was present but God when it happened!

Thats awesome

 

[Daegor]

i agree anytime something like this is mintioned money subject comes up.What people dont realize is it takes money to run a ministry, it takes money to rent a stadium or auditorium and to do all that traveling.So all i can say is if you dont like him dont watch him and dont give him any money.But non christians who dont even understand gods healing ways or power shouldnt talk about things they know nothing about.If you dont belive in gods healing power dont worry about it,because you wont get it anyway.

Yeah tell that to the Prakash family, they have first hand exprience of this "healing power". Well maybe they weren't good enough Christians to recieve it eh?

Ok money aside I found this statement he made:

In Christianity Today, Oct. 5, 1992 Benny Hinn lies about heretical statements he made, as well as his testimony. He is credited as being a mentor for John Arnott of the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship. "Television preacher Benny Hinn, whose sales in Christian bookstores in the last year-and-a-half have exceeded those of James Dobson and Charles Swindoll combined, told CT last September that he would submit to the counsel and constructive criticism of others (Christianity Today, Oct. 28, 1991, p. 44). But Hinn's rhetoric since then has raised questions in some people's minds about his sincerity. For instance: "Now I'm pointing my finger with the mighty power of God on me. ...You hear this. There are men and women in Southern California attacking me. I will tell you under the anointing now, you'll reap it in your children. You'll never win. ...And you children will suffer. You're attacking me on the radio every night; you'll pay, and your children will. Hear this from the lips of God's servant. You are in danger. Repent, or God Almighty will move his hand. ..." That is what Hinn told an audience on August 7 at Melodyland Christian Center in Southern California."

Threatening people's children with God's power? What happened to turning the other cheek?

My favorite BH quote though must be:

I am a 'little messiah' walking the earth

For more Benny Hinn bloopers go to: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/h01.html

And for those Christians who want to know if what he does is unbiblical or not go here: http://www.banner.org.uk/wof/Hinn.html

 

[Bevlina]

Please - this is not a forum to critisize people. This is a forum where people learn about other people's faiths in order to understand them in reality.
I do not agree with what Benny Hinn is doing and saying as it is not Biblical - and many, many other Christians would agree with some. Some wouldn't. But, I had no idea anyone would use this forum in order to bag people.
This is not right at all.

 

[Bevlina]

What He does is not Biblical and is not how God's spirit works. The Bible tells of many people who are not called to teach. Only God can anoint those He sends to teach His Word to His saints. This is truly not His means.

The Bible states this paradoxical truth: not all things that are good are from God, but all things that are of God are good. This simply shows us that miracles alone are no proof that God is the source. That is why He warns us about trusting things of the spiritual realm. [Since we can not see the spiritual realm,] [we have no idea of what is there;] so, we are only to trust in Him. He gives us His spirit (Holy Spirit) to guide us and to teach us His ways.

People who call upon spirits, conjure them, seek counsel from them, etc. are being decieved by the results they obtain. They are blinded to the comprehension that their positive outcome is, in reality, a deception by the powers of darkenss, as the Bible calls them. But, if you try to tell them this, they strongly argue the opposite because they see good. They equate good with God only.

The Bible teaches that there is pleasure in sin, but only for a season. That is why we should never let feelings, emotions, and other human conditions be our source of wisdom in spiritual matters. We should never judge true divinity by what results from our experience. We do not know what these powers are doing to acheive the results that we see. Only God is to be trusted in spiritual matters. Satan distorts God's message by creating the illusion that since the outcome is good, it is God that is doing it or that I am having a spiritual encounter with God. With God, the end does not justify the means. God cares about how you do something just as much as you doing it. God judges your attitude as well as your actions.[/QU

you are in error you made the statement above that we cant see into the Spirit world.
dont try to speak for ever Christian.
i have Gift number 7 of the nine gifts of the Spirit
that allows me to see into the spirit world where Satan AND HIS ANGELS ARE.
I also have seen Gods Angels.
these Gifts only work when God wonts to make you aware of a persons condiction.
most of the time these people are not christians are they say they are but God
shows me their true condiction.

Jehovahway - it would be more pleasing if you could take this information of your gift to another forum. It doesn't belong in this one. You are leaving yourself wide open to flaming.

 

[Daegor]

Please - this is not a forum to critisize people. This is a forum where people learn about other people's faiths in order to understand them in reality.
I do not agree with what Benny Hinn is doing and saying as it is not Biblical - and many, many other Christians would agree with some. Some wouldn't. But, I had no idea anyone would use this forum in order to bag people.
This is not right at all.

Scuse me? I'm not bagging anyone, the only person I've critisized is Benny Hinn. I can't understand why given the mountains of evidence out there anyone would believe in these things, hence why I'm debating it. Besides I am responding to:

But non christians who dont even understand gods healing ways or power shouldnt talk about things they know nothing about.If you dont belive in gods healing power dont worry about it,because you wont get it anyway.

If people choose to talk in a condescending tone, then people will speak back in the same way. What's the problem?

 

[Proud Hindu]

The sad example Daegor posted on page 2 is enough to prove this guy is a fake.

From the names of the family, this probably happened in India as well... Benny Hinn goes to India a lot now to try to trick gullible Hindu villagers into converting.

Here's a story from an article written by a Sri Lankan Buddhist on one of these healing rallies. I have a feeling most are like this.

Some years ago I met a woman in Malaysia who told me an interesting story. Her son got an ear infection and then started to go deaf and he could only hear if she shouted very loudly in his ear. Naturally she was worried and had gone to many doctors but none could help. One day a friend told her about a Christian healing rally and although she was a Buddhist she decided to go just to see if it could make a difference to her son. There were thousands of excited people in the rally, she, her son and many other sick people were taken up on the stage and one by one presented to the pastor who blessed them and prayed for them. When the boy's turn came the pastor he asked what the problem was and the mother said her son was deaf. She was going to add that the boy had partial hearing but before she could do so the pastor shouted at the top of his voice, ( evangelical pastors cant speak quietly or gently, they can only shout) 'In the name of Jesus, be healed'! Then he shouted 'Can you hear now'? and of course the boy nodded because he can always hear if people shout at him. The pastor started jumping up and down and shouting, 'It's a miracle! The Lord has healed him'! and then the whole audience started clapping and shouting 'Praise the Lord'. The woman and her son were immediately hustled of the stage and the next 'miracle' was performed.

http://www.buddhistcouncil.org/knock.htm

 

[Daegor]

The sad example Daegor posted on page 2 is enough to prove this guy is a fake.

From the names of the family, this probably happened in India as well... Benny Hinn goes to India a lot now to try to trick gullible Hindu villagers into converting.

Here's a story from an article written by a Sri Lankan Buddhist on one of these healing rallies. I have a feeling most are like this.

Fascinating article...

The more you read about these things the angrier it makes you. I don't understand the logic...

On other occasions deliberate fraud is committed. They will put a man on crutches in the audience, he will come forward, pretend to be healed and then dramatically throw his crutches away and dance around to show that he can now walk unassisted. They always favor men on crutches because their supposed healing is more easy for the audience to see than healing an ulcer, bone cancer or deafness.

Surely this goes against what it says in the bible, either they think it's acceptable to lie in order to "save" people - or they don't believe in their god at all.

 

[Brother Charlie]

here is the thread I posted on my own little private miracle if you are interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1127366-have-you-ever-been.html

 

[Daegor]

here is the thread I posted on my own little private miracle if you are interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1127366-have-you-ever-been.html

That's a fascinating story, It must have been a powerful experience.

 

[peaceful soul]

What He does is not Biblical and is not how God's spirit works. The Bible tells of many people who are not called to teach. Only God can anoint those He sends to teach His Word to His saints. This is truly not His means.

The Bible states this paradoxical truth: not all things that are good are from God, but all things that are of God are good. This simply shows us that miracles alone are no proof that God is the source. That is why He warns us about trusting things of the spiritual realm. [Since we can not see the spiritual realm,] [we have no idea of what is there;] so, we are only to trust in Him. He gives us His spirit (Holy Spirit) to guide us and to teach us His ways.

People who call upon spirits, conjure them, seek counsel from them, etc. are being decieved by the results they obtain. They are blinded to the comprehension that their positive outcome is, in reality, a deception by the powers of darkenss, as the Bible calls them. But, if you try to tell them this, they strongly argue the opposite because they see good. They equate good with God only.

The Bible teaches that there is pleasure in sin, but only for a season. That is why we should never let feelings, emotions, and other human conditions be our source of wisdom in spiritual matters. We should never judge true divinity by what results from our experience. We do not know what these powers are doing to acheive the results that we see. Only God is to be trusted in spiritual matters. Satan distorts God's message by creating the illusion that since the outcome is good, it is God that is doing it or that I am having a spiritual encounter with God. With God, the end does not justify the means. God cares about how you do something just as much as you doing it. God judges your attitude as well as your actions.[/QU

you are in error you made the statement above that we cant see into the Spirit world.
dont try to speak for ever Christian.
i have Gift number 7 of the nine gifts of the Spirit
that allows me to see into the spirit world where Satan AND HIS ANGELS ARE.
I also have seen Gods Angels.
these Gifts only work when God wonts to make you aware of a persons condiction.
most of the time these people are not christians are they say they are but God
shows me their true condiction.

OK, let us take one step back. The context of my post was meant to indicate that we do not know what is in the spritual realm except that experience that we encounter. And, that it is unwise to wander into that realm. It was a bad idea to use "see" as in sight. What I was saying is spiritual sight. That is, to know and to understand what those spirits are actually doing to you. That is what is unsafe. We have no true knowledge of these spirits apart from God. It is a different story when God's spirit is the one that is showing us spiritual things. In other words, one without Christ does not know what they are dealing with in the spiritual realm. It is not for us to try to manipulate spirits and the like. God's spirit is the only spirit that we need or to have communication with.

If you can see things in the spiritual realm, I can not comment on that; so I will leave that one alone. I have seen spiritual things in the realm too, but they were mainly manifestations of Christ and things of God. I have encountered demonic spirits too, but I could not see them but I could feel their impact on me and the immediate environment. Even then, we do not know the true identity of these spirits and what they are truly capable of. That is why I said what I did. So, they are best left alone. I hope that it is more clear now. I am sorry for the confusion.

 

[Bevlina]

here is the thread I posted on my own little private miracle if you are interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1127366-have-you-ever-been.html

Very, very interesting Brother!

 

[brinley45cal]

I understand the concept of not watching him if I don't like him, and certainly
not giving him any money if I don't like him. But do you realize the amount of
money we're talking about? He pulls in an estimated $100 million per year, to
fund his ministry. Sure, he's got overhead in the form of paying employees,
and venue rental, but we're talking rock star levels of money. Figure on twenty
meetings a year, in venues costing about $70,000. The "Vote for Change" tour
was paying that, and some of Mr Hinn's ministry stops are in hotel halls or
equally second string venues, not concert halls and stadiums. Plus, the
venue may just take gate and a nominal fee, rather than a high rental.
Let's assume he's got 1,000 people working for him, at $30,000 each. That
allows for disparity between upper tier types and bottom rung office
workers, and also for the disparity between US and foreign wages.

So. $30 million for wages to employees, assuming he employs 1000 people,
and $1.4 million for venue rental. Let's tack on another $10 million for
maintenance costs on the parsonage in California, and the orphanages in
Mexico. Roughly $42 million for expenses. So, $60 million, tax free, that
Benny's doing who knows what with, and no clear theological basis for
anything, and possibly more miracles in one night than the whole of the
New Testament.

Well he shouldnt have to apologize for god blessing him,so what if he makes as much as a rock star,if one of them can make money from singing about the devil we should be able to do it preaching about christ.Just because hes a preacher doesnt mean he should be poor.As far as doing more miracles in one night then the whole new testament,Jesus said when the deciples saw him doing miracles he told them greater works than these shall ye do.
So dont take this as me being rude its just some folks tend to make judgements before they really have studied out the subject,so for most its just because they dont yet have the understanding yet.

 

[Amalcas]

I'll be a bit rude too. Listen, I've commited miracles (though more of an intuitive sense). A person holy enough to commit miracles at that rate, and at will, wont have 60 million floating around. They'd use it -- open more orphananges, give to charities, etc. I don't believe its a sin to be rich -- if you use the wealth to benefit humanity.

 

[Brother Charlie]

I'll be a bit rude too. Listen, I've commited miracles (though more of an intuitive sense). A person holy enough to commit miracles at that rate, and at will, wont have 60 million floating around. They'd use it -- open more orphananges, give to charities, etc. I don't believe its a sin to be rich -- if you use the wealth to benefit humanity.

Nobody commits miracles. God commits them. Keep that in mind

 

[Amalcas]

Nobody commits miracles. God commits them. Keep that in mind

Yes. I was mostly just stating a point. Though it can be argued either way: God provides the power, we provide the will. So, who does commit a miracle?
Speaking of which, how about we try to define a miracle, and how one comes to be?

 

[Fuzzy]

Well he shouldnt have to apologize for god blessing him,so what if he makes as much as a rock star,if one of them can make money from singing about the devil we should be able to do it preaching about christ.Just because hes a preacher doesnt mean he should be poor.As far as doing more miracles in one night then the whole new testament,Jesus said when the deciples saw him doing miracles he told them greater works than these shall ye do.
So dont take this as me being rude its just some folks tend to make judgements before they really have studied out the subject,so for most its just because they dont yet have the understanding yet.

1. Even rock stars fess up to what they're actually making. And a lot
of their gross goes straight to the record company to pay off advances
made to the performer. Plus, 100+ million a year is the money rock stars
make after 20 years, and not all of them are touring every year for 20 years.
The Rolling Stones made about $250 million off the 40 Licks tour. Cher made
about $80 million off her farewell tour. How long have those two been around?

2. Did Jesus or the Apostles have opulent houses? Does your local minister
have an opulent house? At your local church, how much is spent on upkeep
of the facility?

3. The private high school I went to sends out a newsletter every year
detailing how they spend the money they get from tuition, fund raising
drives, and donations. They mark it out in rather exacting detail. The public
university my wife went to does the same thing on their alumni letters.
Several local charitable organizations around me do the same thing. All
these organizations feel a need to be accountable to their supporters.
Benny Hinn Ministries doesn't. At best, they'll tell you "work is underway"
or "God told us to wait for a while on that." Nightline went looking for
one of his orphanages. They found an empty house with a sign out front
that said "temporary orphanage." The local officials had never heard of
the building of a new orphanage, and had no records on file.